1
00:00:04,630 --> 00:00:02,070
you mean i have to live out the rest of

2
00:00:07,510 --> 00:00:04,640
my life in this body

3
00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:07,520
no way you got me into this you

4
00:00:13,190 --> 00:00:09,760
get me out

5
00:00:16,550 --> 00:00:13,200
i can't do that chucky why not

6
00:00:20,470 --> 00:00:16,560
because you're an abomination

7
00:00:23,029 --> 00:00:20,480
an outrage against nature you perverted

8
00:00:23,910 --> 00:00:23,039
everything i've taught you and used it

9
00:00:29,269 --> 00:00:23,920
for evil

10
00:00:34,389 --> 00:00:31,990
that's chucky from i don't know one of

11
00:00:37,030 --> 00:00:34,399
the chucky movies

12
00:00:38,069 --> 00:00:37,040
and he's consulting with the voodoo

13
00:00:40,069 --> 00:00:38,079
doctor that

14
00:00:41,910 --> 00:00:40,079
got him into this mess in the first

15
00:00:46,069 --> 00:00:41,920
place of course this is

16
00:00:48,709 --> 00:00:46,079
more movie fantasy but again

17
00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:48,719
is it for anyone who's really studied

18
00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:51,120
magic very much like today's awesome

19
00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:51,520
guest

20
00:00:56,549 --> 00:00:54,960
richard smoley the lines can get rather

21
00:01:00,389 --> 00:00:56,559
blurry

22
00:01:02,069 --> 00:01:00,399
you reference blackmagic that's gonna be

23
00:01:04,149 --> 00:01:02,079
immediately that's where everyone goes

24
00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:04,159
well i think uh there is a certain

25
00:01:09,270 --> 00:01:06,240
reality to it

26
00:01:11,830 --> 00:01:09,280
irish taxi driver in honolulu

27
00:01:14,390 --> 00:01:11,840
who uh got involved with a native

28
00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:14,400
hawaiian girl

29
00:01:17,670 --> 00:01:16,400
and the mother really did not like this

30
00:01:20,149 --> 00:01:17,680
at all

31
00:01:20,710 --> 00:01:20,159
she told him to hold off but he didn't

32
00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:20,720
and

33
00:01:24,469 --> 00:01:23,520
he suddenly started to become subject to

34
00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:24,479
paralysis

35
00:01:27,749 --> 00:01:26,640
from the feet up little by little by

36
00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:27,759
little by little

37
00:01:30,870 --> 00:01:30,000
so uh then someone who is familiar with

38
00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:30,880
these things

39
00:01:34,870 --> 00:01:32,320
said you know i think there might be

40
00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:34,880
some magic involved here let me go and

41
00:01:39,270 --> 00:01:35,920
talk to this

42
00:01:40,230 --> 00:01:39,280
mother i said i don't know maybe there

43
00:01:42,789 --> 00:01:40,240
is maybe not

44
00:01:44,310 --> 00:01:42,799
but um i think that maybe if he gets on

45
00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:44,320
the next boat to the mainland things

46
00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:45,840
would be all right

47
00:01:49,670 --> 00:01:47,840
and you know that evening this cab

48
00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:49,680
driver was right and took the next boat

49
00:01:55,590 --> 00:01:51,600
to san francisco

50
00:01:57,510 --> 00:01:55,600
and speaking of blurry lines

51
00:01:59,510 --> 00:01:57,520
what happens when we apply that same

52
00:02:04,870 --> 00:01:59,520
sensibility to

53
00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:04,880
oh christianity is jesus in agrigore

54
00:02:11,029 --> 00:02:08,080
no i think jesus was a historical figure

55
00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:11,039
and is christ consciousness in agrigore

56
00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:11,440
because

57
00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:13,520
jesus is a historical figure is kind of

58
00:02:16,949 --> 00:02:15,040
a cop-out i mean

59
00:02:19,110 --> 00:02:16,959
bart ehrman who is essentially an

60
00:02:19,910 --> 00:02:19,120
atheist thinks jesus is a historical

61
00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:19,920
figure too

62
00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:21,520
he was some wandering guy who went

63
00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:23,760
around and said a couple of things

64
00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:25,440
you almost come to the point of saying

65
00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:27,280
that in the in the book

66
00:02:30,949 --> 00:02:29,440
the truth about magic you say the

67
00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:30,959
christian gods

68
00:02:35,589 --> 00:02:33,360
can best be understand as an egregor the

69
00:02:38,550 --> 00:02:35,599
tibetan buddhists call it a tulpa

70
00:02:39,509 --> 00:02:38,560
i wouldn't say so this is a great level

71
00:02:42,390 --> 00:02:39,519
three chat

72
00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:42,400
with a truly remarkable researcher and

73
00:02:45,509 --> 00:02:43,840
knowledgeable guy

74
00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:45,519
i gave him a pretty hard time but i have

75
00:02:50,949 --> 00:02:47,920
the ultimate respect for richard

76
00:02:52,550 --> 00:02:50,959
let's get right to the interview

77
00:02:55,030 --> 00:02:52,560
the skeptico where we explore

78
00:02:57,750 --> 00:02:55,040
controversial science and spirituality

79
00:02:58,949 --> 00:02:57,760
with leading researchers thinkers and

80
00:03:01,190 --> 00:02:58,959
their critics

81
00:03:02,309 --> 00:03:01,200
today we welcome richard smoley to

82
00:03:04,790 --> 00:03:02,319
skeptico

83
00:03:06,949 --> 00:03:04,800
richard of course is a harvard and

84
00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:06,959
oxford trained scholar in

85
00:03:14,390 --> 00:03:10,640
religion and philosophy and a recognized

86
00:03:17,430 --> 00:03:14,400
expert on all sorts of stuff related to

87
00:03:20,790 --> 00:03:17,440
christian mysticism gnosticism

88
00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:20,800
theosophy and all other kinds of stuff

89
00:03:26,869 --> 00:03:23,200
that we like to talk about here on

90
00:03:30,229 --> 00:03:26,879
skeptico richard has a new book out

91
00:03:32,470 --> 00:03:30,239
the truth about magic which

92
00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:32,480
i'm sure we'll talk quite a bit about

93
00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:33,840
but i'm hoping we can

94
00:03:38,149 --> 00:03:36,400
also get him to talk about some of his

95
00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:38,159
other research and some of his other

96
00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:39,040
work

97
00:03:43,190 --> 00:03:41,760
particularly one that i've referenced

98
00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:43,200
before on this show and

99
00:03:49,430 --> 00:03:47,200
in my book how god became god

100
00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:49,440
what scholars are really saying about

101
00:03:53,509 --> 00:03:51,120
god and the bible

102
00:03:56,149 --> 00:03:53,519
an excellent book from a guy who again

103
00:04:00,070 --> 00:03:56,159
is recognized among religious scholars

104
00:04:00,949 --> 00:04:00,080
as somebody that really needs to be paid

105
00:04:04,550 --> 00:04:00,959
attention to

106
00:04:06,949 --> 00:04:04,560
even if he a lot of times steps outside

107
00:04:09,830 --> 00:04:06,959
of the bounds of normal

108
00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:09,840
kind of academic religious scholarship

109
00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:11,200
which

110
00:04:15,350 --> 00:04:13,360
is much needed i mean you don't want to

111
00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:15,360
stay in those boundaries because there's

112
00:04:18,949 --> 00:04:17,359
not much happening there

113
00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:18,959
um it's just something we should really

114
00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:20,720
talk about because it's something

115
00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:23,680
i've dealt with on this show and that's

116
00:04:26,710 --> 00:04:24,960
part of the reason i was drawn to

117
00:04:28,390 --> 00:04:26,720
richard in the first place is

118
00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:28,400
kind of getting this understanding of

119
00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:30,880
who we can really rely on

120
00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:34,320
how we should sort through all this

121
00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:37,600
important information about spirituality

122
00:04:41,189 --> 00:04:40,479
and the religiosity that's associated

123
00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:41,199
with it

124
00:04:48,469 --> 00:04:45,120
so there is a lot to unpack here

125
00:04:50,950 --> 00:04:48,479
i hope we can get to all of it i might

126
00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:50,960
piss richard off and this could end

127
00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:52,000
early

128
00:04:58,550 --> 00:04:55,440
uh but i i am going to risk

129
00:05:00,790 --> 00:04:58,560
going to some of those other places

130
00:05:02,469 --> 00:05:00,800
because they are of my interest and i'm

131
00:05:05,830 --> 00:05:02,479
really not interested in a

132
00:05:08,469 --> 00:05:05,840
coast to coast kind of canned

133
00:05:09,909 --> 00:05:08,479
questions kind of thing i do want to say

134
00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:09,919
because we might get into some of that

135
00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:10,400
stuff

136
00:05:13,590 --> 00:05:12,320
that i have a tremendous amount of

137
00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:13,600
respect

138
00:05:17,310 --> 00:05:16,400
for richard smoley for his work for his

139
00:05:20,310 --> 00:05:17,320
deep

140
00:05:22,870 --> 00:05:20,320
spirituality that he is

141
00:05:23,590 --> 00:05:22,880
both wrestling with you can tell in a

142
00:05:26,950 --> 00:05:23,600
very

143
00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:26,960
dynamic and important way and is also

144
00:05:31,590 --> 00:05:29,120
communicating effectively with people

145
00:05:33,029 --> 00:05:31,600
who are equally trying to find their way

146
00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:33,039
on the spiritual path

147
00:05:38,629 --> 00:05:36,800
so with all that richard i know you kind

148
00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:38,639
of probably don't know what's coming now

149
00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:41,680
so welcome thanks for joining me

150
00:05:47,909 --> 00:05:44,800
well it's a pleasure to be here and um i

151
00:05:51,430 --> 00:05:47,919
very much look forward to it and um go

152
00:05:53,350 --> 00:05:51,440
ahead feel free to piss me off

153
00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:53,360
you know if we're not pissing each other

154
00:05:56,550 --> 00:05:55,360
off at least a little bit i mean we

155
00:05:58,309 --> 00:05:56,560
don't want to piss each other off all

156
00:05:59,350 --> 00:05:58,319
the time but if you're not risking doing

157
00:06:01,029 --> 00:05:59,360
that

158
00:06:02,390 --> 00:06:01,039
then i feel like you're not really fully

159
00:06:07,110 --> 00:06:02,400
engaging the dialogue

160
00:06:11,510 --> 00:06:09,749
controversial as the stuff we're going

161
00:06:14,070 --> 00:06:11,520
to talk about today because

162
00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:14,080
let's go back and talk about your

163
00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:16,000
current book your latest book i should

164
00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:17,039
say

165
00:06:21,990 --> 00:06:20,160
the truth about magic tell us a little

166
00:06:25,029 --> 00:06:22,000
bit about that book

167
00:06:26,629 --> 00:06:25,039
and uh you know the usual stuff why you

168
00:06:31,270 --> 00:06:26,639
wrote it who it's for

169
00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:34,950
well i wrote this book in two days and

170
00:06:41,029 --> 00:06:38,000
it's part of a larger project

171
00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:41,039
g d media the publisher of the book

172
00:06:47,670 --> 00:06:44,080
had me do an audio visual video

173
00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:47,680
simultaneous recording over two days

174
00:06:51,189 --> 00:06:50,720
which was a year ago almost exactly and

175
00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:51,199
then i

176
00:06:56,309 --> 00:06:54,400
edited the transcript so this is a an

177
00:07:00,550 --> 00:06:56,319
edited transcript of basically

178
00:07:03,430 --> 00:07:00,560
me speaking and i think this is good

179
00:07:03,909 --> 00:07:03,440
because it forced me to keep things as

180
00:07:07,110 --> 00:07:03,919
simple

181
00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:07,120
and clear and concise as possible and

182
00:07:11,029 --> 00:07:08,880
that is what this book and what the

183
00:07:13,589 --> 00:07:11,039
audio video series is about

184
00:07:15,029 --> 00:07:13,599
it's an attempt to introduce people to

185
00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:15,039
this whole world

186
00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:18,880
of alternate realities including magic

187
00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:21,680
the occult uh and many other things

188
00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:22,800
psychic powers

189
00:07:25,909 --> 00:07:24,800
many other things that they've been

190
00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:25,919
wondering about

191
00:07:30,469 --> 00:07:28,080
but never have really felt they've had

192
00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:30,479
kind of an entry point into

193
00:07:36,710 --> 00:07:33,759
and that's what this book is about okay

194
00:07:38,870 --> 00:07:36,720
because you know for folks who are

195
00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:38,880
listening to this show

196
00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:42,000
that pick up this book there's

197
00:07:46,790 --> 00:07:43,360
definitely some nuggets

198
00:07:48,629 --> 00:07:46,800
in there that are really quite profound

199
00:07:51,189 --> 00:07:48,639
and well written you're a fantastic

200
00:07:52,629 --> 00:07:51,199
writer we all know that

201
00:07:54,629 --> 00:07:52,639
but i think a lot of people are going to

202
00:07:56,469 --> 00:07:54,639
struggle with

203
00:07:59,589 --> 00:07:56,479
where you're coming from in terms of

204
00:08:01,749 --> 00:07:59,599
this introduction who you're speaking to

205
00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:01,759
i mean when when we talk about the

206
00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:02,720
occult

207
00:08:07,029 --> 00:08:06,240
when we talk about magic most of us now

208
00:08:11,270 --> 00:08:07,039
are thinking about

209
00:08:14,790 --> 00:08:11,280
magic in modern day culture you know

210
00:08:17,510 --> 00:08:14,800
damien echols and high magic and

211
00:08:19,670 --> 00:08:17,520
celebrity magic and i pulled up

212
00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:19,680
musicians who've actually practiced

213
00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:20,720
magic

214
00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:27,120
we are obsessed in our culture with

215
00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:30,160
magic but it's not

216
00:08:37,029 --> 00:08:33,440
as i don't know

217
00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:37,039
kind of dumbed down as it is

218
00:08:43,750 --> 00:08:40,240
in this book i i just wonder aren't

219
00:08:46,870 --> 00:08:43,760
most folks way past this magic

220
00:08:49,509 --> 00:08:46,880
is real stuff well

221
00:08:50,550 --> 00:08:49,519
let me put it this way i read something

222
00:08:53,590 --> 00:08:50,560
a few days ago

223
00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:53,600
that said that the average american has

224
00:08:59,990 --> 00:08:56,640
a seventh grade reading level

225
00:09:03,750 --> 00:09:00,000
so although there are many kanye shenti

226
00:09:04,389 --> 00:09:03,760
lots of edgy artists magician types out

227
00:09:07,670 --> 00:09:04,399
there

228
00:09:10,070 --> 00:09:07,680
i know some of them this is not

229
00:09:11,910 --> 00:09:10,080
really for them because they know all

230
00:09:14,150 --> 00:09:11,920
this stuff already

231
00:09:15,590 --> 00:09:14,160
this is for people who haven't got a

232
00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:15,600
clue

233
00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:17,680
it's it's for the the type the very

234
00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:19,600
sophisticated edgy types you're talking

235
00:09:22,230 --> 00:09:20,480
about

236
00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:22,240
may be interested in some of it from

237
00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:24,160
what i have to say from my own point of

238
00:09:27,670 --> 00:09:25,600
view

239
00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:27,680
but i'm hoping they'd also be interested

240
00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:29,360
in it and saying well look

241
00:09:32,949 --> 00:09:31,360
my cousin doesn't know anything about

242
00:09:35,190 --> 00:09:32,959
this stuff and where do i start

243
00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:35,200
well you could hand them this book and

244
00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:37,519
at least give them a handle on it

245
00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:39,440
so this is not this is not kind of

246
00:09:42,550 --> 00:09:40,560
written for

247
00:09:44,710 --> 00:09:42,560
the kanye shenti for the people who

248
00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:44,720
already know a great deal about it it's

249
00:09:49,350 --> 00:09:45,680
written for

250
00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:49,360
the average joe and i think that is um

251
00:09:54,790 --> 00:09:52,720
much needed okay but if we're really to

252
00:09:57,509 --> 00:09:54,800
jump right in the middle of that i mean

253
00:09:59,269 --> 00:09:57,519
you know is damien eccles from the west

254
00:10:01,670 --> 00:09:59,279
memphis three

255
00:10:02,389 --> 00:10:01,680
are you on board with his understanding

256
00:10:06,230 --> 00:10:02,399
of magic

257
00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:06,240
his crowley do what thou wilt

258
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:08,320
you know here's how to compel the

259
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:09,839
spirits to

260
00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:11,760
do your bidding kind of stuff i mean

261
00:10:15,590 --> 00:10:13,279
here's a guy who was

262
00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:15,600
convicted of raping and killing three

263
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:16,880
kids in

264
00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:19,440
arkansas convicted and never you know i

265
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:20,640
mean

266
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:23,839
there's there's a whole bunch of

267
00:10:29,509 --> 00:10:27,279
kind of bad stuff to keep it really

268
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:29,519
simple whether we'll leave the evil term

269
00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:32,560
out of it that is associated with people

270
00:10:36,389 --> 00:10:33,040
who

271
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:36,399
are going down the magic

272
00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:39,519
path without thinking super deeply about

273
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:40,240
it

274
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:43,120
so i i'm just not sure i want you to

275
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,399
clarify when you say

276
00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:46,560
they already know what does what does

277
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:48,240
damian eckles know

278
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,480
i don't think he knows i think he's

279
00:10:55,509 --> 00:10:52,160
really missed the point

280
00:10:58,150 --> 00:10:55,519
about what the spiritual path is and

281
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:58,160
the fact that he's wrapped it in this

282
00:11:02,230 --> 00:10:58,959
word called

283
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:02,240
magic and uh is is troubling to me

284
00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:04,399
and i think we need to to sort that out

285
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:05,920
in a way that

286
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:08,000
is beyond kind of seventh grade reading

287
00:11:12,829 --> 00:11:09,600
stuff what do you have any

288
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:12,839
similar concerns or you what do you

289
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:14,320
think

290
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:16,480
well in the first place let me let me

291
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:17,519
state right

292
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:20,160
out in front that i have never up until

293
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:20,880
this moment

294
00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:24,000
heard of damian echols uh what you just

295
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:27,040
so what you say about his work uh is all

296
00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:28,399
i know about it

297
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:30,959
uh i can make certain uh conclusions

298
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:32,480
about it uh just from

299
00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:33,920
you know some of the the things you've

300
00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:35,839
said like crowley

301
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,760
felloma do what that will she'll be the

302
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:39,200
whole of the law so that is

303
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:43,279
that is part uh one section of magic

304
00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:45,200
i think one thing that needs to be

305
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,880
pointed out

306
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:48,480
is that when you take something like

307
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:50,079
this

308
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:53,279
you are encompassing an enormous

309
00:12:01,990 --> 00:11:57,120
moral spectrum as well as

310
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:02,000
a spectrum of practice as well as

311
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:05,760
a spectrum of theory let's take

312
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:09,120
two other areas with huge spectrums

313
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:12,720
let's take religion religion

314
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:15,760
has often

315
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:18,079
pointed humanity toward some of its

316
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:19,440
highest

317
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:23,680
particularly artistic achievements if

318
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:24,000
you think

319
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:26,720
about it and yet it's responsible for

320
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:27,600
all sorts of

321
00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:30,720
crimes and um mishaps and

322
00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:34,720
um lies and then let's take another

323
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,320
discourse which is science yeah science

324
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:41,120
created the coveted vaccine but on the

325
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:42,240
other hand

326
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:45,440
uh a lot of the environmental problems

327
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:47,920
that we're dealing with now are are part

328
00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:48,720
of the science

329
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,959
and the result of the scientific

330
00:12:55,829 --> 00:12:52,320
worldview

331
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:55,839
so to say well any of these

332
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:58,160
is they got part of this is that not

333
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:59,839
that's not really science that's not

334
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:00,880
really religion

335
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:03,440
well in a way that's special pleading so

336
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,040
there are all sorts of things that go on

337
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:07,600
in magic from the best to the worst

338
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:11,040
and that only means that magic is uh

339
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:14,240
very very much a human phenomenon

340
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,279
well is it that's kind of the point

341
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:19,200
of your book is that it's it's really

342
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:21,360
not and that in the way that we've

343
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:22,079
normally

344
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:24,480
limited our understanding of human

345
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:25,360
endeavors

346
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:28,240
and in particular the way science and

347
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,519
atheistic science which is by design

348
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:34,320
uh this has kind of been my thing is

349
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:35,600
that

350
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:38,959
biological robot

351
00:13:42,389 --> 00:13:40,880
in a meaningless universe that you

352
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:42,399
couldn't possibly have

353
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,600
any understanding of anything beyond

354
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:47,040
your five senses

355
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:51,920
is a very deliberate attempt to kind of

356
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:56,079
control this ability that we have to

357
00:13:59,670 --> 00:13:57,920
reach these extended realms that you're

358
00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:59,680
talking about in the book so

359
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,360
i guess first i'd want to drive that

360
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:03,120
stake in the ground what do you think

361
00:14:05,829 --> 00:14:03,920
about that

362
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:05,839
yeah well we're witnessing the collapse

363
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,160
of the scientific world view now

364
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:11,040
because it's come afoul of uh its its

365
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:11,760
own

366
00:14:15,829 --> 00:14:14,320
internal uh uh confusions and

367
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:15,839
contradictions

368
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:18,320
because many of which are implicit in

369
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:20,000
what you just said

370
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,519
because on the one hand uh

371
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:25,600
it's all a question of what we can

372
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:26,800
perceive

373
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:30,639
through our five senses enhanced by

374
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:33,920
electron microscopes the hubble you know

375
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:36,399
spacecraft whatever but nonetheless it's

376
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:38,959
still a matter of our five senses

377
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:42,000
okay now on the other hand

378
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,800
science is also telling us that these

379
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:46,880
five senses are highly limited

380
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:48,959
highly conditioned perceiving only a

381
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:50,560
very small part

382
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:53,040
of what actually may be out there as

383
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:53,600
shown

384
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,720
first by the fact that scientific

385
00:14:59,910 --> 00:14:58,399
theories and results are becoming more

386
00:15:03,189 --> 00:14:59,920
and more anomalous

387
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:03,199
in terms of um you know a

388
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,480
common sense uh thought uh

389
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,320
in the second place well you have i

390
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,399
believe it's donald hoffman um somewhere

391
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:12,399
in your vicinity if you see irvine

392
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:14,959
who's saying well our senses evolved

393
00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:15,760
really

394
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:18,079
just to be able to function and you know

395
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:19,360
uh decide whether

396
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:21,680
the animal is going to kill you or

397
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:23,279
you're going to kill the animal

398
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:25,519
and it excludes a whole bandwidth of

399
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,320
things because

400
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:28,720
they're not relevant to our survival so

401
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:29,839
you cannot then argue

402
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:33,199
that this is very very limited view

403
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:35,120
and that at the same time as the

404
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,120
scientific worldview pretends to do

405
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:38,880
that's telling us everything even

406
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:40,880
everything that's knowable

407
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,320
another point in fact is uh

408
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:46,240
science has limited itself to five

409
00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:47,600
senses

410
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:50,639
as conventionally known and yet

411
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:54,000
somehow all over the decades

412
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:55,600
all over the centuries all over the

413
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:57,680
world all sorts of different cultures

414
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:00,720
people have real perceptions that

415
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:03,519
um do not accord with the five senses as

416
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:05,920
conventionally understood

417
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:08,480
oh by the way i'm sure you've dealt well

418
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,959
i know

419
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:10,079
who you've interviewed so you've

420
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:12,240
certainly dealt with this um there's

421
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,839
certainly a number of researchers

422
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:15,680
who say well you know actually science

423
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:17,920
has proven the existence of psychic

424
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,800
phenomena at least to a certain degree

425
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:22,800
so all of this makes this whole

426
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,639
scientific world view

427
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,880
cave in on itself and i think we're

428
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,399
witnessing that today

429
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,920
um it may even have disastrous

430
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:31,920
consequences now

431
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:34,480
i did not say that we are witnessing the

432
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,199
collapse of the scientific method

433
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:39,440
because the scientific method as a

434
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:40,399
method

435
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:43,680
are narrowly focused

436
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:46,959
is a legitimate one on the other hand

437
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:50,240
its conclusions can never be final

438
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:53,279
you know sir carl popper said uh if you

439
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:54,880
think you've come up with final results

440
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,079
in science you've given up the game

441
00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:00,800
yeah so let's kind of uh stay with the

442
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,880
science thing for just a minute

443
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:04,480
i hear you what you're saying donald

444
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:06,559
hoffman i think he's terrific he's been

445
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:06,880
on

446
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:10,559
the limiting

447
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:13,919
through the five senses got it and

448
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:16,240
in terms of science's ability or

449
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:17,760
inability to measure

450
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,439
which is what science is really all

451
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:22,319
about is measuring and comparing

452
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:24,559
and when it acknowledges that it doesn't

453
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:26,959
have the means to fully measure

454
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,400
then it's kind of obsoleted itself

455
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:32,400
another way that it obsoleted itself is

456
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:35,919
really a hundred years ago in the whole

457
00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:39,280
quantum theory max planck you can't get

458
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:41,919
behind consciousness

459
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:44,400
consciousness is fundamental a double

460
00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:46,559
slit experiment which i think

461
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,320
you know one of the most important

462
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:50,880
experiments of our modern time is the

463
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:52,080
one done by

464
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,760
dean raiden where he took the double

465
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:55,840
slit experiment and said well let's

466
00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:58,799
take it to its natural conclusion let's

467
00:18:02,310 --> 00:17:59,440
put

468
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,320
a highly skilled meditator in there and

469
00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:04,240
i'll generate a photon beam through my

470
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,919
little photon beam generator and my

471
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,679
little photon beam collector

472
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:10,160
and i'll ask him to interfere with the

473
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:11,200
photon beam

474
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:13,520
and consistently you know six sigma

475
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,559
result if you know

476
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:15,760
science that's off the charts

477
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:18,080
statistically he was able to do that

478
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:20,000
and show that and that's replicated

479
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:21,840
throughout many labs

480
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,240
many replications of that experiment

481
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:25,840
nobel prize winning stuff

482
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,679
never get one but the point being that

483
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,520
now we're saying and you are nodding

484
00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:33,120
your head so i know you're

485
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:34,640
totally down with this and you talk

486
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:36,880
about this in the book

487
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,039
as soon as we introduce consciousness

488
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:40,640
into the equation

489
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:42,960
our conventional science as we know it

490
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:44,640
model is obsoleted

491
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,720
because now every experiment needs to

492
00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:48,720
have a little asterisk next to it which

493
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:49,520
says

494
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:51,360
we did the best we can in measuring

495
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,880
these guys but we really couldn't

496
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:54,240
measure consciousness

497
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:55,919
so we just kind of left that out of the

498
00:19:01,350 --> 00:18:58,400
equation well

499
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:01,360
how big is that asterisk so but let me

500
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,120
unravel that

501
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:05,120
because the question i really i guess i

502
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:07,200
was asking richard is

503
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:10,160
are we to believe that that is an

504
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:11,440
accident

505
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:14,559
that science's insistence that we are

506
00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:15,200
not

507
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,240
these rich spiritual beings who are

508
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:20,799
on a spiritual journey science is

509
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:22,000
insistence that we

510
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:25,200
are nothing more than biological robots

511
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:26,960
in a meaningless universe

512
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:28,799
are we to assume that that's just

513
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:31,120
accidental that those guys just like

514
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,799
gosh darn it that's the best we could

515
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,120
figure out i don't think it is

516
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:37,360
i think it's by design i think it's a

517
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:38,960
social engineering project

518
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:41,280
because people who are of that mindset

519
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:47,270
yeah well there are a lot of reasons for

520
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:48,240
this

521
00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:53,280
and one reason is that historically

522
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:55,520
science and religion have been bitter

523
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:56,320
enemies

524
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:00,240
and remains so uh very soon as when

525
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:02,960
science was born in the 17th century

526
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:05,120
uh the churches and churches got very

527
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:06,000
very nervous

528
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:09,760
about this and either tried to poo poo

529
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:10,240
it

530
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:15,520
very narrowly

531
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:19,200
i think with science again

532
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:22,480
if science the science scientific world

533
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,640
view the world view that you've just

534
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,240
described

535
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,200
is i believe obsolete the scientific

536
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,600
method is a method of inquiry

537
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:33,600
will remain useful as long as anyone

538
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:34,880
wants to use it

539
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:38,799
so i do distinguish very strongly

540
00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:40,559
between those things

541
00:20:44,470 --> 00:20:42,559
and there is something as you know

542
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,480
called logical positivism

543
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:46,320
which is obsolete except maybe it's not

544
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:47,520
so obsolete

545
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:50,559
which says that no statement that cannot

546
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,960
be

547
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:53,120
scientifically verified is either true

548
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,559
or meaningful

549
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:56,559
well in its pure form that didn't last

550
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:58,320
much more than a decade

551
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:01,039
but the logical positive mindset stays

552
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:01,520
with us

553
00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:05,120
to this decade so science is simply in

554
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:05,840
my view

555
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:09,280
science does what it does

556
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:12,720
but it steps beyond its bounds by saying

557
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,880
no other method of knowledge and i say

558
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:16,720
knowledge

559
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:19,600
i'd not say faith because faith as you

560
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:22,400
know is basically a word

561
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,720
uh other methods of knowledge are

562
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:26,320
totally invalid

563
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:27,840
and that is where i think science is

564
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:30,240
overstepping its bounds

565
00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:32,880
okay i'm going to try one more time if i

566
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,360
was

567
00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:36,320
interested in controlling the world and

568
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,280
somebody

569
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:40,000
has to control the world that is our

570
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,080
that the evidence is clear i mean

571
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,480
we try the united states tries to

572
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:46,320
control the world we are an empire that

573
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:47,039
is our

574
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:49,360
goal that is there's a self-preservation

575
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,400
part of that

576
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:53,520
but that is why we fight wars that is

577
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,880
why we

578
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:56,880
undermine other governments that is why

579
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:58,000
we spy that is why

580
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,559
we do all this stuff because we're

581
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:02,400
trying to control

582
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:05,600
the outcome and as part of doing that

583
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:08,480
it's become clear especially in our

584
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:10,640
lifetime both of us are old enough to

585
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,280
see

586
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,760
that there are many social engineering

587
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:15,360
projects

588
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:18,159
that just are later revealed as being

589
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:19,120
true the one i

590
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:21,679
always is my touchstone because half

591
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:24,080
people know it and half people don't but

592
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:27,440
you know gloria steinem and so

593
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,280
i and the reason i bring that up is not

594
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,120
to talk about the women's movement

595
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:33,840
but i i just get tired i just had an

596
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:34,320
interview

597
00:22:38,830 --> 00:22:36,320
yesterday with the bruce grayson that

598
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:38,840
you know just

599
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:41,760
eminently excellent near-death

600
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:45,360
experience researcher and i kind of

601
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:46,799
wound up going in kind of the same

602
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:49,200
territory is do you really think this

603
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:49,679
stuff

604
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,200
be controlled

605
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,360
why wouldn't someone have an interest in

606
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,360
where culture goes

607
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:59,440
so the tie back again to gloria steinem

608
00:23:02,789 --> 00:23:00,799
is you know

609
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:02,799
we can argue about how involved she was

610
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:06,000
but how about why the hell does the cia

611
00:23:09,909 --> 00:23:08,720
care about the women's movement in which

612
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:09,919
direction it goes

613
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,559
why do they care about the lsd movement

614
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,320
why are they deeply involved in that

615
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:16,640
because they're deeply involved in

616
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,559
social engineering and control

617
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:20,799
and as soon as we accept that why do we

618
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:22,559
think they're not playing that game in

619
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:28,390
well there was a lot what you said one i

620
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:29,840
didn't know that fact about gloria

621
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,799
steinem i knew

622
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,720
she had been a playboy bunny so maybe

623
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:34,480
the cia was trying to

624
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:36,640
get her to infiltrate the playboy club

625
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:37,520
and uh

626
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:41,120
uh undermine hugh hefner's playboy

627
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:42,400
philosophy

628
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:43,760
well i think you're being sarcastic

629
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:45,679
there but but i mean it's almost like

630
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:46,880
you gotta pause

631
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,880
and do the google res do the google

632
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,320
search see her say

633
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:52,240
she was cia and i don't know if it's

634
00:23:56,230 --> 00:23:53,679
like a 60 minutes interview

635
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,240
but it was like of that level and then

636
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:58,240
go back and look at why she even came

637
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,559
out

638
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,400
and admitted it is because somebody

639
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:02,320
outed her somebody in the women's

640
00:24:05,269 --> 00:24:03,600
movement outed her

641
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,279
and then go look at why they outed her

642
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:07,360
and then you have memos from her cia

643
00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:08,720
boss saying that

644
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,799
so you know and this is kind of the

645
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:12,480
thing i pinged you on a little bit with

646
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:13,120
the book

647
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:16,799
it's like there's some history here that

648
00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:19,600
i feel like we have to kind of again

649
00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:21,760
drive a stake in the ground and say okay

650
00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:23,120
did that happen

651
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:25,600
or did that not happen because we're

652
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:27,039
going to build a lot of

653
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:29,279
implications on top of that that if we

654
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:31,760
don't ground ourselves in that

655
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:34,799
you know well i certainly think

656
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:38,320
uh historical research uh and there and

657
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,679
has certain validity i am not a

658
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,919
post-modernist or a deconstructionist or

659
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:45,520
a conspiracy theorist

660
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:48,799
that says this is all lies

661
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:51,520
i will refer you in fact to the only the

662
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:51,840
most

663
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,679
factual book i've read about the cia

664
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:56,080
which is called legacy of ashes

665
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:58,240
and if you read this book legacy of

666
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:59,600
ashes and i've forgotten the author's

667
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:00,320
name

668
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:03,760
the history of the cia is one continuous

669
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:07,440
uh uh legacy of bumbling

670
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,400
whatever they did they did wrong they

671
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:12,000
they blew the bay of pigs

672
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:14,080
they they blew the cur the nor the

673
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:15,360
korean war

674
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:18,559
they um well in the iraq war

675
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:21,760
started partly because cheney knew how

676
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,400
bad

677
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:25,440
the cia was and for his own personal

678
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:27,039
reasons just chose to disbelieve them

679
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,600
and they said

680
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,120
no i don't think there's any weapons of

681
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:31,679
mass destruction so my point here

682
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:35,200
is uh i uh i guess i better not apply to

683
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:37,360
the cia for a job anytime soon

684
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:40,480
but my point is you're right

685
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:44,240
there's all of this control you're right

686
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:47,200
all of it but what is the net effect of

687
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:48,559
all of this control

688
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:51,840
because no one entity has

689
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:54,880
enough control to enforce it

690
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:58,240
worldwide conspiracy theorists like to

691
00:26:03,110 --> 00:25:59,440
believe

692
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,120
uh there are but they don't really have

693
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:05,679
very good grounds for thinking so

694
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:09,360
it's more like there's a conspiracy of

695
00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:11,440
a large number of powerful competing

696
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:13,279
interests whose interests

697
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:16,880
dovetail sometimes sometimes very much

698
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:20,240
um conflict and this

699
00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:23,520
uh what would that uh produce chaos

700
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,960
or at least some measure of chaos

701
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:28,400
what do we see in society in the world

702
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,919
today some measure of chaos

703
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:33,360
i'll tell you what let me try and pull

704
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:35,760
this back on course a little bit

705
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:38,240
but hopefully with a bridge that that

706
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:39,600
connects

707
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:42,240
because my real point just is that i

708
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:43,520
think we have to

709
00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:47,039
look with a skeptical

710
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:50,480
view towards these memes that are passed

711
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:50,960
on

712
00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:56,640
you know we already covered that i'm not

713
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:57,760
so sure that that's

714
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:01,279
an authentic organic meme i'm not sure

715
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:01,760
that

716
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:04,000
materialism is going to fall or is

717
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:04,960
collapsing

718
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:07,120
i don't believe that because i think the

719
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,880
evidence where i was really going

720
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,000
richard is

721
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:12,559
you want evidence that materialism is

722
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:14,720
insufficient explanation for

723
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:17,120
reality as we experience it well we had

724
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:18,559
it a hundred years ago

725
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:21,200
right so schrodinger and max planck and

726
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:21,840
all those guys

727
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:24,559
they were mystics right they said hey

728
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:25,360
sorry but

729
00:27:29,029 --> 00:27:26,960
this is where our experiments have led

730
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:29,039
us to consciousness is fundamental you

731
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:29,600
can't get

732
00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:31,039
behind consciousness they did the

733
00:27:34,389 --> 00:27:32,799
double-slit experiment they said what

734
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:34,399
this implies is you know

735
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:36,960
if a tree falls in the forest well if no

736
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,760
one's there

737
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:39,440
you know none of it happens because

738
00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:41,279
consciousness is fundamental

739
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,520
and that has been taken out of the

740
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:45,440
equation i think by design but i said

741
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,120
we're going to get back to your world

742
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,520
i recently interviewed a guy this is

743
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:51,520
back to your world and this is back to

744
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:54,159
to the book but also your work in

745
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:54,720
general

746
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:57,520
so i interviewed a terrific guy dr hugh

747
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,279
urban religious scholar

748
00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:01,520
ohio state university esteemed

749
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,559
university

750
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:04,799
respected scholar wrote a book on

751
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:05,919
scientology

752
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:08,960
right and if you're in academia

753
00:28:13,110 --> 00:28:11,679
in religious studies you can't call

754
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,120
scientology occult

755
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:15,200
even though we all know it's a cult you

756
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:17,120
have to call it a new

757
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,240
religious movement and we understand the

758
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:22,080
limitations of that because

759
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,240
if you really look at christianity it's

760
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:26,080
hard not to call it a cult

761
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:27,760
if you really look at just about every

762
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,320
religion it has cultish aspects that

763
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,080
you'd be hard-pressed

764
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:34,720
to kind of differentiate how those are

765
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:36,399
different from scientology

766
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:38,960
but at a kind of basic street level we

767
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:41,440
do understand that scientology is more

768
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,039
of a cult

769
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:45,600
the point is that he traced back the

770
00:28:48,950 --> 00:28:46,399
history

771
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:48,960
of elrond hubbard and jack parsons

772
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:50,559
elrond hubbard being the

773
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:54,399
founder of scientology and jack parsons

774
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:55,279
being

775
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,320
the founder of jet propulsion labs and

776
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,320
both those guys were a number one

777
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:02,159
students of aleister crowley

778
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:04,399
and in constant communication about

779
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:06,240
aleister crowley about

780
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:09,120
the workings and the magical rituals and

781
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:11,200
sex magic rituals that they were doing

782
00:29:14,789 --> 00:29:14,159
and in fact back to our friend dr hugh

783
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:14,799
urban

784
00:29:18,789 --> 00:29:18,080
at ohio state he says yes i can verify

785
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:18,799
that they were

786
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:22,000
out in the desert in nevada

787
00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:24,799
doing the of babylon ritual in

788
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,000
order to bring forth

789
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:28,720
the antichrist and they were doing that

790
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:29,200
under

791
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:32,000
the direction of crowley again and i

792
00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:32,559
said

793
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:35,600
okay well doesn't that trouble you at

794
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:36,080
least

795
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,120
a little bit dr urban and he said no

796
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:41,600
he said i've seen a lot of stuff he says

797
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:42,640
it really doesn't

798
00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:45,679
matter if it's true if there's any

799
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,120
reality to it

800
00:29:53,549 --> 00:29:50,240
it only matters what they believe so

801
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:53,559
this is the kind of uh uh

802
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:56,320
post-modernist i can't deal with

803
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:58,000
extended consciousness

804
00:30:01,029 --> 00:30:00,720
i can't deal with magic i can't deal

805
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:01,039
with

806
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,399
anything spiritual so i again

807
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:06,960
to me it is a direct result of that

808
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:08,159
scientific

809
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:10,640
mindset that's instilled and and of

810
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:11,840
course i push back go

811
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:14,799
well that's kind of ridiculous i mean

812
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:17,440
the first thing that we have to know

813
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:20,960
is is there any chance that this is real

814
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:24,720
are there extended realms can we compel

815
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:27,200
entities that might exist in those other

816
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:27,840
realms

817
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:30,720
to do our bidding until we can answer

818
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,000
that question

819
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:35,039
we really can't deal with that history

820
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:37,679
we can't just say oh it doesn't matter

821
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:39,440
if it's real or not

822
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,640
and that i think is the state of what

823
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:44,640
we're calling religious studies these

824
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:45,840
days

825
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:48,559
do you agree with that assessment of

826
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:49,360
where that

827
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:52,320
that a lot of that thinking is at and do

828
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:54,240
you see that as problematic

829
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:56,960
relative to what you're trying to bring

830
00:31:01,750 --> 00:30:57,760
forth with

831
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:04,149
well certainly a lot hey let me insert a

832
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:05,840
commercial this is called the dice game

833
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,720
of shiva

834
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:08,799
how consciousness creates the universe

835
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:11,919
this is a book i came out with in 2009

836
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:14,000
so i guess i'm also saying that it all

837
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:16,159
comes back to consciousness

838
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:19,840
uh that much said uh religious studies

839
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:23,120
uh yes i i was just

840
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:26,320
sending an email today about a book uh

841
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,399
in religious studies published by none

842
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:30,720
other than princeton university press

843
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:32,320
to someone i said well i think this

844
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:34,240
woman missed the point

845
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:36,880
and i think most of it misses the point

846
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:37,760
although

847
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:42,159
very likely as hugh urban says yes

848
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:45,600
uh jack parsons and crowley probably

849
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:49,200
corresponded at x time in y place and so

850
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:49,600
on

851
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,440
all of that is uh legitimate

852
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,679
it doesn't take us very far and it

853
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:56,880
doesn't take us very far in the

854
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:57,840
direction

855
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:00,960
i think you want to look into i would

856
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:02,720
say simply

857
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:06,960
that if you are going to

858
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:10,080
be genuinely empirical genuinely

859
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,399
empirical

860
00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:14,559
you have to take the whole of human

861
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:17,679
experience into account

862
00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:20,000
not just the five senses and not just

863
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:21,919
the five senses as focused on

864
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:25,200
um the typical repeatable experiment

865
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:28,399
uh and the experience of humanity uh is

866
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:30,240
full of exactly what you're talking

867
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:32,880
about and

868
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:35,279
throughout all cultures throughout all

869
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:36,399
uh places

870
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:39,360
times the only exception is ours and

871
00:32:42,310 --> 00:32:40,720
that could well be because

872
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:42,320
we've had it hammered into our head for

873
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:45,360
the last 150 years that it's nonsense

874
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,080
so so if you're going to be genuinely

875
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:50,640
empirical and genuinely consider

876
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,799
all the evidence that is the evidence of

877
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,240
human experience

878
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:55,679
you have to bring this religious

879
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,919
experience into it

880
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:59,360
now that doesn't mean you have to

881
00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:00,960
believe every last little thing

882
00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:03,919
everybody said in fact examining this

883
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:05,679
religious experience as paranormal

884
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,480
experience

885
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:08,720
requires as much or more skeptics but

886
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:10,720
genuine skepticism

887
00:33:14,789 --> 00:33:13,039
i mean i don't know exactly how you

888
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:14,799
think of the word skepticism

889
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,159
or skeptic but at this point i don't

890
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,720
think of skeptic in what i believe it's

891
00:33:23,669 --> 00:33:22,080
an original sense i don't think it's

892
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:23,679
used in its original sense that is to

893
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:24,240
say

894
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:27,120
i really want to know i don't know yet

895
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:28,880
but i do want to know

896
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:30,960
the skeptic today and when someone says

897
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:32,240
i'm a skeptic

898
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:34,799
they're basically saying yeah i know

899
00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:35,840
this is all funk

900
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:38,720
when they know nothing of the kind so uh

901
00:33:41,909 --> 00:33:40,480
if you really want to

902
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:41,919
you have to take this into account and

903
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:43,760
you can't just write it off and say

904
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:46,000
well it's all imagination it's all just

905
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:47,039
delusion it's all

906
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,120
oh hereby here's another little one it's

907
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:51,120
all anecdotal

908
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:55,039
human history of the history of the

909
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:56,640
human race is anecdotal

910
00:34:00,789 --> 00:33:57,919
you're not going to repeat the battle of

911
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:00,799
the water bottle of water fortunately

912
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:03,760
so yeah you know uh yeah you have to be

913
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:04,640
skeptical

914
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,720
genuinely wishing to know genuinely

915
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:08,720
incorporating all of this

916
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:11,440
as well as scientific findings into some

917
00:34:15,109 --> 00:34:12,800
kind of world view

918
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:15,119
now has our civilization done that yet

919
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:16,240
no it has made

920
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:19,040
every step to do the exact opposite to

921
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:20,000
divide everything

922
00:34:24,149 --> 00:34:22,960
up and exclude all sorts of things and

923
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,159
what would that result in

924
00:34:28,389 --> 00:34:27,520
confusion dissociation uh on a mass

925
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:28,399
level

926
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:31,200
anxiety depression willingness to

927
00:34:34,069 --> 00:34:31,679
believe

928
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:34,079
all sorts of absolute rubbish that's

929
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:35,280
what we have

930
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:38,639
okay let me let me kind of go back to

931
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:38,960
hugh

932
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:42,879
urban i see a real problem

933
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:46,560
in the soft sciences i see a problem

934
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,679
in the hard sciences in their insistence

935
00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:51,200
on materialism which

936
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:54,399
as i said i think is at least

937
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,280
influenced by a social engineering meme

938
00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:59,520
that likes to see things go that way

939
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:02,960
in the social sciences i think

940
00:35:06,310 --> 00:35:05,839
the way that has kind of manifested

941
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:06,320
itself

942
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:08,960
is this kind of post-modernism as you

943
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:09,520
said

944
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:11,839
you know relativism well nothing can

945
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:13,040
really be

946
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:15,280
true or understood you know i just

947
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:16,079
interviewed a guy

948
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,520
well we'll get into that in a minute

949
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:19,520
gregory shushan who's done a

950
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:21,520
cross-cultural analysis of near-death

951
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:22,960
experiences

952
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:25,280
and i will interject this story because

953
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,040
it's really important i think his work

954
00:35:31,109 --> 00:35:28,960
is super important

955
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:31,119
so again when you go across culture over

956
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,200
time this the benefit of our audience

957
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:35,119
it's the best way to kind of weed out

958
00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:36,720
the social

959
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:40,320
you know

960
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:42,800
is this just something we've cooked up

961
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:44,880
in our own kooky culture

962
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,960
or does it extend beyond time into other

963
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:49,119
cultures so gregory shushan does some

964
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:50,720
very important work and says let's look

965
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:52,160
at near-death experience

966
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,599
let's look at that across cultures

967
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:56,160
across time and he finds aha

968
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:59,040
i'm finding consistent threads and he's

969
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:59,520
trying to

970
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:01,599
explain to me his methodology and he

971
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,480
says it's difficult work to do

972
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,079
because you're dealing with different

973
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:08,320
accounts some of them are first-hand

974
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:09,440
accounts well all of them are

975
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:10,800
second-hand accounts but some of them

976
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:12,160
are like third-hand accounts

977
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,079
a guy told me that a guy told me kind of

978
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:16,400
thing he says but through that you know

979
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:19,119
you can still put together some good

980
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:20,400
information

981
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:21,599
and then he kind of said i'm

982
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:24,320
paraphrasing he said until you talk to

983
00:36:28,790 --> 00:36:25,119
other people

984
00:36:32,069 --> 00:36:28,800
in academia who say we can't rely

985
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:32,079
on any accounts of anyone

986
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:36,079
who ever lived because it's all polluted

987
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:36,640
by

988
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,680
this is the kind of the ultimate

989
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:39,680
postmodern it's all co

990
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:42,240
polluted by culture it's all through

991
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,359
this lens

992
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:45,760
of you know cultural culture culture

993
00:36:50,670 --> 00:36:46,640
which is

994
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:50,680
contrived and it's you know some

995
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:53,520
microaggression individual versus but

996
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:54,079
this is

997
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,520
real dialogue that they have

998
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,520
among academics and when i look at

999
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:00,880
religious studies

1000
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:04,390
as a whole i just go this is just gobbly

1001
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:07,430
who is listening to any of this as being

1002
00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:08,160
real

1003
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:10,320
and i guess i'd return to the other

1004
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:12,160
question do you think they're

1005
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:14,720
are they for real are they really who

1006
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:16,480
are they speaking to who's listening to

1007
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:18,400
any of that stuff

1008
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:21,440
i agree with uh the researcher insofar

1009
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:22,079
as i

1010
00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:25,280
um know about

1011
00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:26,480
what she said about near-death

1012
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:28,400
experiences i mean i've certainly read

1013
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:31,520
enough about them i have not had one per

1014
00:37:35,109 --> 00:37:32,720
se

1015
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:35,119
but yes they're i i mean my wife is

1016
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:36,000
watching the netflix

1017
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,000
series on this right now and you know

1018
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:39,839
i'm not really that interested in it

1019
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:41,680
because you know i've read so many of

1020
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:43,440
these cases they all sound the same

1021
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,200
which validates them but it doesn't make

1022
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:47,760
it for very fascinating watching

1023
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:50,880
uh so that kind of uh dialogue of the

1024
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,079
of the man you discuss with

1025
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,119
academics uh you know hard academics

1026
00:38:00,870 --> 00:37:59,359
uh is i think very legitimate and very

1027
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:00,880
powerful

1028
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:04,400
i i am not really gonna attempt to

1029
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,280
defend conventional religious studies in

1030
00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:09,200
academe

1031
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:11,119
i don't have a phd because i didn't want

1032
00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:12,400
one because i didn't want to become a

1033
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:13,359
professor

1034
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:15,760
and the older i get the glander i am i

1035
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,640
didn't

1036
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:18,800
because i realize what an intellectual

1037
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,480
trap that is

1038
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:22,160
and besides particularly if you want to

1039
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:24,400
like get tenure or retain

1040
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:26,320
some kind of you know uh there's a lot

1041
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:28,079
you just can't say

1042
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:29,680
it's like the inquisition except you

1043
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:31,599
don't get burned at the stake

1044
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:35,119
so no i i i wouldn't defend that stuff

1045
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:36,000
at all

1046
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:37,920
and i think the kind of research that

1047
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:39,359
you're talking about and the kind of

1048
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:40,640
dialogue you're talking about

1049
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:42,480
well of course no two people are ever

1050
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:44,320
going to agree on everything or

1051
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:46,400
sometimes even anything but i think it's

1052
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:47,680
a perfectly legitimate

1053
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:49,119
you know i'm glad this kind of thing is

1054
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:50,960
happening uh

1055
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:52,560
and all i can say is there's a lot

1056
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,079
further to go

1057
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:56,480
yeah you know uh we're going to stay on

1058
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:58,400
uh dr gregory shushan

1059
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:01,839
for a minute first off he is i guess

1060
00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:04,560
in some respects maybe a living example

1061
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:06,240
of what you feared right so

1062
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:09,440
he's gone down the academic route

1063
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:12,160
he's been starved basically i mean they

1064
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:13,839
toss him a little something

1065
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,480
here or there with some affiliation to

1066
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:18,560
do some things he's a brilliant guy

1067
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:20,960
but you know once you put on those as

1068
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,280
you're saying those academic handcuffs

1069
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:25,359
you're really kind of stuck you can't

1070
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:27,440
find it you never figure out another way

1071
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:28,560
to earn a living

1072
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:30,800
so you're always going going back and

1073
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:33,119
kissing the hand

1074
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,880
but the other interesting thing the

1075
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,480
super interesting thing the most

1076
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:38,000
important thing about his

1077
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:40,839
his research is he comes to the

1078
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:42,000
conclusion

1079
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:44,640
and it's pretty radical but he really

1080
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:46,240
backs it up

1081
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:50,880
is that virtually every religion

1082
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:53,920
has developed their beliefs

1083
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:57,040
about the afterlife from near-death

1084
00:40:01,829 --> 00:39:58,880
experiences

1085
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:01,839
and he has some amazing accounts and one

1086
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:03,040
of the things that he did that was

1087
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:05,280
really smart about his research

1088
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:08,160
he looked at uh primarily indigenous

1089
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:09,359
cultures

1090
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,480
so you know leaving christianity and

1091
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:15,359
other mainstream religions off the table

1092
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:16,720
but then bring him in at the end and

1093
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:18,000
saying there's no reason to believe that

1094
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:19,359
they would be any different

1095
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:21,119
so he goes and looks at all these

1096
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:22,720
different religious traditions and

1097
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:25,520
native american traditions and oceanic

1098
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:26,720
traditions and just

1099
00:40:30,470 --> 00:40:28,640
all over the world throughout history

1100
00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:30,480
and he says invariably and there's even

1101
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:32,800
documentation among those accounts

1102
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:36,160
where the shaman will say oh you know

1103
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:37,440
what

1104
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,760
richard just had a near-death experience

1105
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:41,440
that sounds real

1106
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:44,400
we need to change our beliefs because

1107
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:44,800
they

1108
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:49,520
really did bring back some information

1109
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:52,319
and then those become the beliefs and

1110
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:55,680
they become part of the religion

1111
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,560
yeah well i am again not familiar with

1112
00:41:01,829 --> 00:41:00,480
dr shoshan's work except as you've

1113
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:01,839
described it

1114
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:04,960
just uh a superficial responses that's

1115
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:07,200
uh makes a great deal of sense i think i

1116
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:09,359
would be a little more cautious

1117
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:12,160
about saying that all religious theory

1118
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:12,480
all

1119
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:14,640
religious uh teaching comes from

1120
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,160
near-death experiences

1121
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:18,960
just to clarify he said their afterlife

1122
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:20,160
beliefs

1123
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:23,520
after oh after likely well even so but i

1124
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:26,000
i think you could argue about whether

1125
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,920
it's a hundred percent that or

1126
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,160
a very significant part of that but it

1127
00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:32,720
certainly seems basically plausible

1128
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:35,839
uh another thing that is of course

1129
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:38,480
even more problematic is visits from the

1130
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:39,760
dead

1131
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:42,079
it's very common for people to have

1132
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:42,960
visits

1133
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:46,000
from recently deceased family members

1134
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,520
often in a way that is well

1135
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:51,920
cannot be written off entirely as

1136
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,480
imagination or wishful thinking

1137
00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:57,119
i used to edit a magazine called gnosis

1138
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:58,960
and we would get sheaths of these things

1139
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,520
in

1140
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:00,960
we didn't publish this stuff that wasn't

1141
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:02,640
the kind of thing we published it

1142
00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:04,240
i would you know send them back with a

1143
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,839
polite note uh

1144
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,680
but they were sending us because they

1145
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:09,040
didn't know who to send it out else to

1146
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:09,920
send it to

1147
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,440
uh most of these people aren't going to

1148
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:13,040
tell their families and friends

1149
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:14,319
because if you start talking about that

1150
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:15,599
your family and friends become your

1151
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:17,520
worst enemies

1152
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:20,560
oh yeah you you do believe that

1153
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:22,079
you know you know that you know all that

1154
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:24,000
business um

1155
00:42:31,829 --> 00:42:29,040
in any case um i think what he says is

1156
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,839
what you say of his work sounds very

1157
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:33,040
plausible

1158
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:36,480
as far as my own work goes i am a writer

1159
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:39,680
i have various day jobs doing various

1160
00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:42,000
things including writing

1161
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:43,839
and that gives me an enormous amount of

1162
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,230
i'm sorry it enables me to um

1163
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,960
write and say anything i want because i

1164
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:54,720
don't belong to a church

1165
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:58,319
i don't need to uh care about a tenure

1166
00:43:01,349 --> 00:43:00,079
or an academic position that i never

1167
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:01,359
wanted anyway

1168
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:03,680
um i can say what i want and people are

1169
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:04,960
free to take it

1170
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,680
at face value this is what i say you can

1171
00:43:13,670 --> 00:43:09,119
agree with

1172
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,680
27 percent

1173
00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:15,119
you know i think it gives me a great

1174
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:16,400
deal of freedom at least to be

1175
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:18,079
reasonable intellectually honest about

1176
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:19,599
where i'm coming from

1177
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:22,480
which freedom i would not i believe have

1178
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:24,000
in the um

1179
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,760
in the university okay richard let me

1180
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:29,760
try and come back to the book on a

1181
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:31,680
couple of points that i i think are

1182
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:33,520
interesting that everyone is interested

1183
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:34,480
in

1184
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:37,680
you reference black magic that's gonna

1185
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:38,319
be

1186
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,000
immediately that's where everyone goes

1187
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:42,079
can i do people really can they cast a

1188
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:42,560
spell

1189
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:45,200
it's a fear-based thing you know might i

1190
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:47,040
be the victim of magic

1191
00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:50,319
and you kind of say both you kind of say

1192
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:51,440
well

1193
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:52,720
you don't need to worry about it too

1194
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:55,119
much but the best you can

1195
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:57,359
tell from your research is there is a

1196
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:58,880
reality to that

1197
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:01,440
do you want to speak about that at all

1198
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:02,640
well i think

1199
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:06,319
there is a certain reality to it

1200
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:10,000
one case that comes to mind is um

1201
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,599
and this happened a number of decades

1202
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:14,160
ago was this um

1203
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:16,400
taxi driver a huddle this irish taxi

1204
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:18,560
driver in honolulu

1205
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,119
who uh got involved with a native

1206
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:23,760
hawaiian girl

1207
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:25,760
and the mother really did not like this

1208
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:31,109
and you know she told him to hold off

1209
00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:33,280
but he didn't

1210
00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:36,560
and he suddenly started to become

1211
00:44:41,349 --> 00:44:39,280
subject to paralysis from the feet up

1212
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:41,359
little by little by little by little

1213
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:43,520
so uh then someone who is familiar with

1214
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,400
these things

1215
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:45,920
said you know i think there might be

1216
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:48,319
some uh magic involved here let me go

1217
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:49,520
and talk to this

1218
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:52,319
mother well i said well i don't know

1219
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,839
maybe there is maybe not

1220
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:56,400
but um i think that maybe if he gets on

1221
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:57,920
the next boat to the mainland things

1222
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:59,440
will be all right

1223
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:01,440
and you know that evening this cab

1224
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,200
driver was right and took the next boat

1225
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:05,119
to san francisco

1226
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:07,359
an interesting thing about this if you

1227
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:08,720
take the story

1228
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:11,440
let's say this story is true and there

1229
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:13,440
are others like it

1230
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,280
one is this cab driver

1231
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:19,280
didn't believe in any of this stuff

1232
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:20,880
right

1233
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:25,280
two he didn't know what was happening

1234
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:28,560
so you can't say uh it's all suggestion

1235
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:30,960
it's all playing on someone's credulity

1236
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:32,240
if they don't believe in something in

1237
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:33,599
the first place and they don't know that

1238
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:34,640
it's happening in fact

1239
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:36,960
you know i not to throw out a pointer

1240
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:37,680
that um

1241
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,599
may be misused but if you're casting a

1242
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:41,200
spell on someone you don't want them to

1243
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,000
know about it

1244
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:44,800
because they can take counter measures

1245
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:45,359
so

1246
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,560
this um i say

1247
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:50,319
takes it a little bit out of the realm

1248
00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:52,560
of the nacebo effect

1249
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:54,400
you know uh believing something will

1250
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:55,920
harm you and it will

1251
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:58,319
uh so i think there's something in there

1252
00:46:02,230 --> 00:45:59,680
um i think

1253
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:02,240
it's possible to become uh particularly

1254
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:02,960
if you're

1255
00:46:09,109 --> 00:46:06,160
uh psychologically weak to get

1256
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:09,119
very much afraid of this and uh in a way

1257
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,000
to almost uh

1258
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:12,640
bring it upon yourself whether by

1259
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,000
imagination or where

1260
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:16,720
whether you're letting something in so i

1261
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:18,800
think i think there is something to it

1262
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:21,359
uh you know and of course it's always uh

1263
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:22,800
discouraged uh

1264
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:25,680
largely because it usually backfires on

1265
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:27,359
the practitioner

1266
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:29,599
eventually at any rate someone once said

1267
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:30,720
um there are no

1268
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:34,480
old black magicians they just look old

1269
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:36,880
so i think they're i think this sort of

1270
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:38,480
thing does happen

1271
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:43,839
um the reason i'm being uh perhaps a bit

1272
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:47,040
almost equivocal about it is that

1273
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:49,040
when when someone's by starts buying

1274
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:50,480
into this

1275
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,400
they start buying into you know a

1276
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:54,480
hollywood version of it

1277
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:56,560
and of course because our uh life

1278
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:57,599
imitates art

1279
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:59,359
all of those people you you've just

1280
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:01,359
shown are basically doing that

1281
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,319
hey you know that this is let's let's be

1282
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,400
the hollywood occultists that we've seen

1283
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:07,680
about in all these movies

1284
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:11,119
hey that sounds like fun um

1285
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,280
so i think all of those elements have to

1286
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:15,119
be factored into it and this is not to

1287
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,520
say

1288
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:17,520
that every uh attempt at this kind of

1289
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:18,960
thing is uh

1290
00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:22,480
real or valid or has any consequences

1291
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,559
but i'm willing to the possibility that

1292
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:26,640
some do

1293
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:29,280
say richard this is the point though

1294
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:31,200
that is the launching point

1295
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:34,480
that's the beginning and and i feel like

1296
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:35,280
you're kind of

1297
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:36,800
leaving you're just going to bring us to

1298
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:38,880
that point and say that's the end of it

1299
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:43,119
i mean take it take any one of those

1300
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,880
little tidbits that you left hanging

1301
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:46,160
there is there

1302
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:49,599
a reality to it it certainly seems like

1303
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:50,480
there is

1304
00:47:54,549 --> 00:47:52,960
from an anthropological standpoint

1305
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:54,559
people have gone to other cultures

1306
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:55,760
studied voodoo

1307
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:59,520
studied curses studied shamanistic

1308
00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:01,359
practices throughout the world that do

1309
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:01,760
this

1310
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:04,079
and consistently as you're alluding to

1311
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:05,280
they come back

1312
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:07,119
at least the ones who are honest about

1313
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:08,480
it and say it's

1314
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:11,280
pretty undeniable that there seems to be

1315
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:11,599
uh

1316
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:13,440
witnessed accounts of this people who

1317
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:15,440
are disinterested parties witnessed it

1318
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,559
all the rest of that

1319
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:19,359
so it so that's one tidbit that we just

1320
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:20,000
can't leave

1321
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:22,400
hanging out there we then need to say

1322
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:23,839
how would we begin

1323
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:25,680
to investigate that how would we

1324
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:28,800
understand that how would we understand

1325
00:48:32,069 --> 00:48:31,200
how to wrestle with that in our lives

1326
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:32,079
and then

1327
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,440
equally with the the celebrity magic you

1328
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:37,200
know and you mentioned the the hollywood

1329
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,720
thing and

1330
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:40,720
i was not only talking about you know

1331
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:41,839
damien eckles

1332
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:44,720
but musicians who we all know have

1333
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:46,480
talked for a long time about

1334
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:48,559
selling their soul to the devil in order

1335
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:49,680
to gain

1336
00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:53,200
certain powers but i we cannot

1337
00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:56,400
just take that stuff and just dismiss it

1338
00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:57,920
because we're kind of given

1339
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:59,200
we're kind of given two different

1340
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:01,440
versions of it by our culture

1341
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,280
one part of our culture the scientific

1342
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:05,280
culture just denies that

1343
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:07,760
any of that could possibly be true by

1344
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:09,040
edict they just say

1345
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:11,040
don't pay attention to it it can't

1346
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:12,720
possibly trip be true

1347
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:14,559
but there's a whole other part if you go

1348
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:16,000
to netflix

1349
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:18,400
and if you go to just popular culture

1350
00:49:22,390 --> 00:49:19,839
and you look at celebrities

1351
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:22,400
there's a wink and a nod well of course

1352
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,440
this is true

1353
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:25,200
of course this is how the universe

1354
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:27,200
really works and let me tell you

1355
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:31,280
how to marshall these entities for your

1356
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:32,000
benefit

1357
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,559
and why the hell wouldn't you if you can

1358
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,319
get the spirits on your side

1359
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:39,119
i i love your point about there are no

1360
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:39,599
old

1361
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:42,800
black magicians they just look at but

1362
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:45,119
give me the scientific evidence for that

1363
00:49:47,670 --> 00:49:47,040
are we at the point where we maybe need

1364
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:47,680
to

1365
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,319
start taking this stuff seriously and

1366
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:52,400
start applying some real

1367
00:49:56,829 --> 00:49:54,480
research into understanding what's going

1368
00:50:03,990 --> 00:50:00,870
well i guess my response to that is okay

1369
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:04,000
design an experiment that would satisfy

1370
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:05,520
i think you'd have a bit of difficulty

1371
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:09,440
doing it um and oh by the way

1372
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,119
this stuff is not quite like

1373
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:15,040
stuffing makeup down the rat's throat

1374
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:16,640
until you figure out how much it takes

1375
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,760
to kill him

1376
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:19,920
because frankly it doesn't matter

1377
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:22,079
whether the scientist is a good mood

1378
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:23,920
or bad mood or whatever if he's stuffing

1379
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:26,000
this makeup down the rat's throat

1380
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:28,640
the rat will die with a certain amount

1381
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:30,960
of makeup in its gut

1382
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:33,440
you know on some statistical basis um

1383
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,359
but in this stuff

1384
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:38,240
the the mental uh because you're dealing

1385
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,640
in

1386
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:41,520
shall we say mental realities the mental

1387
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:42,400
um

1388
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,200
state of the investigator has an

1389
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:47,599
enormous amount to do with it

1390
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:50,720
so i mean even more than in um a

1391
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:54,000
quantum experiment that the dean raiden

1392
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:56,880
uh thing is uh just experiment is uh

1393
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,400
certainly an example

1394
00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,440
but any of uh

1395
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:03,839
what are you gonna do go to a magical

1396
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:04,880
ritual and

1397
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:08,079
you know well what

1398
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:10,559
findings did you uh determine i suppose

1399
00:51:13,349 --> 00:51:11,359
you could

1400
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:13,359
well you know raymond rayden is doing

1401
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:14,720
that i don't know if you've seen his

1402
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:15,760
latest book but

1403
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:18,800
his latest book is a magic book it's a

1404
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:21,040
book about magic about bringing magic

1405
00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:25,200
into the lab and i i appreciate

1406
00:51:30,309 --> 00:51:28,319
where he's going i don't know that

1407
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:30,319
he'll really get there but and i

1408
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:32,319
interviewed him about that

1409
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:34,480
but why not uh you know he's saying if

1410
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:35,440
this is a

1411
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,079
aspect of nature and we need to

1412
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:39,839
understand more broadly kind of what

1413
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:40,640
you're saying

1414
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,000
beyond the five senses why wouldn't we

1415
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:46,079
try and apply the scientific method to

1416
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:47,520
it i commend him for at least

1417
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:51,440
opening himself up to it

1418
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:53,839
well i do too and uh if he can develop

1419
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:54,800
experiments

1420
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:57,440
that test this kind of thing and um

1421
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:58,640
knowing him maybe a little bit and

1422
00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:59,839
knowing his work a little bit

1423
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:01,920
i have no reason to doubt that he could

1424
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:04,480
um i'm i'm all for it uh and let's find

1425
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:05,359
out what he

1426
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:09,440
uh discovers it's not that it's um

1427
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:12,480
off limits as again again it's certainly

1428
00:52:16,470 --> 00:52:13,040
not like

1429
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:16,480
oh it's a matter of faith it's just

1430
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:16,960
simply

1431
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:20,000
okay go there if you can uh

1432
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:23,040
nobody in my humble view is ever going

1433
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:24,800
to get to the end

1434
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:26,880
if only for colonel popper's reason you

1435
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,800
know you know you think you've got final

1436
00:52:33,990 --> 00:52:30,960
results you just given up the game

1437
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,000
so it's legitimate i support it

1438
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:36,720
i of course like everybody else know

1439
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:39,040
only a tiny fraction of what's going on

1440
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:40,319
in this work

1441
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:43,200
but i don't see any problem with it i'll

1442
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:45,920
be interested to see their conclusions

1443
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,119
so that's certainly fine with me

1444
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:51,359
no i i agree and i also agree those

1445
00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:53,680
limitations i i respect because he does

1446
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:54,720
such careful work

1447
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:56,960
anyway but i also respect just the

1448
00:53:02,030 --> 00:52:58,640
effort the saying

1449
00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:02,040
okay i realize it's the kind of

1450
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:05,119
post-materialism science that says

1451
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,520
okay i realize the game's up i realize

1452
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:09,440
we can't really measure everything

1453
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:12,079
but with those limitations now

1454
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,280
acknowledged

1455
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,119
what can we seem to understand so i'm

1456
00:53:18,549 --> 00:53:16,960
going to bring one other guy into the

1457
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:18,559
equation

1458
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:21,680
i'm sure you haven't heard of this

1459
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:24,720
guy but he's fantastic he's just been so

1460
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:26,720
influential to me as i ran across him

1461
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:28,800
because i've been i was doing a series

1462
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:29,839
of shows

1463
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:33,200
on evil and on

1464
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:35,359
things that we all kind of acknowledge

1465
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:37,599
you know horrible crimes that people are

1466
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:38,480
doing

1467
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:40,240
against children or stuff that we can

1468
00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:43,040
all point to and say ah

1469
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:45,280
in this great discussion of is there

1470
00:53:49,670 --> 00:53:46,400
such a thing

1471
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:49,680
imperative

1472
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:53,200
well at least we can say yeah that to me

1473
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:55,280
probably does go in that direction so

1474
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:56,720
i'm doing these shows

1475
00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:58,559
and a clinical psychologist from grand

1476
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:00,319
rapids michigan

1477
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:03,599
named tom zinzer dr tom zinzer

1478
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:06,319
in practice for a long time says alex

1479
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:08,960
you don't really understand

1480
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:12,640
the difference between evil and darkness

1481
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:15,040
and he goes on to tell me that in his

1482
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:16,079
practice

1483
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:19,599
a lot of different people

1484
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:22,800
did a lot of hypnotherapy in his work

1485
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:24,319
kind of along the normal lines you know

1486
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:26,480
i'm afraid of spiders i'm afraid of

1487
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:29,920
water but then had also gotten into

1488
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:32,640
work with people who had been victims of

1489
00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:34,400
satanic ritual abuse

1490
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:37,280
which if anyone has any doubts is very

1491
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:38,799
very real

1492
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,799
i don't know about the satanic part of

1493
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:42,400
that because we really don't know what

1494
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:43,680
that word means

1495
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:46,480
and we can reference your excellent book

1496
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,920
how god became god

1497
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:50,079
and you can see that historically if you

1498
00:54:53,750 --> 00:54:51,520
go looking for satan

1499
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,760
he kind of slips through your fingers

1500
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:54,960
but if you

1501
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:58,079
just stick to the theme of the

1502
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:01,599
satanic perversion

1503
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:04,000
do harm to other people hey that pops up

1504
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:05,280
a lot through culture

1505
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,920
throughout time and i'll maybe i'll

1506
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:09,119
pause right there

1507
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:11,040
and let you speak to that yeah well i

1508
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:12,799
think

1509
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:15,440
in terms of the world we know it there

1510
00:55:20,309 --> 00:55:16,160
is such a thing

1511
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,319
as evil in fact i will say categorically

1512
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:22,160
about you although i know nothing about

1513
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:22,559
you

1514
00:55:25,750 --> 00:55:24,799
i will say this categorically about

1515
00:55:27,829 --> 00:55:25,760
every person who

1516
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:27,839
listens to this or ever listen to this

1517
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:28,799
you have known some

1518
00:55:36,549 --> 00:55:33,040
good in your life and some evil uh

1519
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:36,559
the proportions vary wildly but

1520
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:39,760
uh you both you know what good and evil

1521
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:40,400
is

1522
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:48,480
profoundly true in another

1523
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,160
the human race wanted to know good and

1524
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:52,000
evil so here we are

1525
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:54,640
uh you got what you wanted and you get

1526
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:55,839
to experience both

1527
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:58,000
no matter how rich and lucky you are or

1528
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:00,400
how poor and miserable you are

1529
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:06,630
i don't know that's that's that's kind

1530
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:08,240
of what i have to say to that so you

1531
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:08,640
know

1532
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:10,720
okay maybe maybe then richard can i pull

1533
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:11,839
you back into

1534
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:14,480
because you do a beautiful job of this

1535
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:15,359
and

1536
00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:17,200
pull you back to your other book or one

1537
00:56:21,990 --> 00:56:19,040
of your other books written many books

1538
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:22,000
how god became god where you really

1539
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:23,680
trace

1540
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:27,920
back this story of the devil

1541
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:32,480
as he pops up and how he kind of changes

1542
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:35,920
over time in order to advance the story

1543
00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:37,040
or to advance

1544
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:38,480
where they want to take the story in

1545
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,640
terms of the religion do you have any

1546
00:56:44,230 --> 00:56:41,920
any thoughts on that do you want to

1547
00:56:47,990 --> 00:56:44,240
share any of that

1548
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:48,000
well i'll pull together some thoughts

1549
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:51,280
not so much from that but from the truth

1550
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:52,880
about magic

1551
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:57,119
i am willing to say that

1552
00:57:03,430 --> 00:57:00,640
contrary to scientific theory or not

1553
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:03,440
there is such a thing as thought forms

1554
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:04,559
that is to say

1555
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:08,000
thoughts have a certain substance in

1556
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:10,160
the world of what the catalyst called

1557
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:11,760
yet syria the world of forms you

1558
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:12,640
experience it

1559
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:16,000
in dreams fantasies so on and

1560
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:19,280
if a certain thought form is uh

1561
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:24,240
given energy through focus

1562
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:27,280
either revered or uh

1563
00:57:34,230 --> 00:57:30,559
feared as someone i think it was a

1564
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:34,240
andrew carnegie who put it that way

1565
00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:35,920
it will have a kind of objective

1566
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:37,599
existence

1567
00:57:41,589 --> 00:57:39,599
it is a human creation it's a collective

1568
00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:41,599
human creation

1569
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:43,359
but because it's had so much energy

1570
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,040
poured into it

1571
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:48,240
it has a certain quasi-independent at

1572
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:48,880
least

1573
00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:52,720
flavor of um existence

1574
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:54,640
so do i believe in the devil in the

1575
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:55,839
personal form

1576
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:58,559
no i think there is this devil and this

1577
00:58:01,349 --> 00:58:00,079
collective thought form has a word in

1578
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:01,359
the world of magic it's called an

1579
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:02,400
aggregor

1580
00:58:05,589 --> 00:58:04,240
collective thought form it's what i i

1581
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:05,599
just said satan

1582
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:08,640
uh the devil isn't egregor this entity

1583
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:09,359
this

1584
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:12,079
thought that has an enormous amount of

1585
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,359
power and you can you can

1586
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:15,280
yeah you can tap into it if you want is

1587
00:58:21,190 --> 00:58:18,000
jesus in aggregor

1588
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:21,200
no i think jesus was a historical figure

1589
00:58:24,549 --> 00:58:24,160
and is christ consciousness in agrigore

1590
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:24,559
because

1591
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,640
jesus is a historical figure is kind of

1592
00:58:30,069 --> 00:58:28,160
a cop-out i mean

1593
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:30,079
bart ehrman who is essentially an

1594
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:32,240
atheist thinks jesus is a historical

1595
00:58:34,630 --> 00:58:33,040
figure too

1596
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:34,640
he was some wandering guy who went

1597
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:36,960
around and said a couple of things

1598
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:39,599
i mean i i just you almost come to the

1599
00:58:43,670 --> 00:58:41,200
point of saying that in the

1600
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:43,680
in the book the truth about magic you

1601
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:45,760
say the christian gods

1602
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:48,160
can best be understand as an egg or the

1603
00:58:52,309 --> 00:58:50,400
tibetan buddhists call it a tulpa

1604
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,319
i am down with that i think we are

1605
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:54,640
co-creators of our reality

1606
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:56,640
you know but if you really want to go

1607
00:59:01,270 --> 00:58:57,839
there i mean you're going to

1608
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:01,280
piss a lot of people off but it wouldn't

1609
00:59:05,750 --> 00:59:04,400
wouldn't a lot of christ consciousness

1610
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:05,760
which is definitely real people

1611
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,720
experience it when they have a

1612
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:08,480
near-death experience

1613
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:10,319
wouldn't a lot of that be best

1614
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:12,319
understood as

1615
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:19,750
i wouldn't say so but

1616
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:22,799
there's obviously no under obligation to

1617
00:59:28,470 --> 00:59:24,240
agree with me

1618
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:28,480
as i said really in many of my books

1619
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:33,440
if you peel back your experience

1620
00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:36,559
you get back to some pure witnessing i

1621
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:40,240
capital i and the hindu is called this

1622
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:41,839
atman

1623
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:45,280
the christians call it the kingdom of

1624
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:47,359
heaven or the kingdom of god or i

1625
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:51,280
am and that is not uh an agrigore

1626
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,520
because that is fundamentally what we

1627
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:54,880
are

1628
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:57,359
and it is consciousness because as i

1629
01:00:01,190 --> 00:59:58,640
said conscious creates

1630
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:01,200
consciousness creates the universe so no

1631
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:03,440
i don't think those things are edgars

1632
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:06,880
now that much said uh

1633
01:00:11,270 --> 01:00:08,640
a lot of energy has been given into this

1634
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:11,280
to this image of jesus this image of god

1635
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:14,559
and all of those things are god for

1636
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:16,720
example i believe in god if you

1637
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:18,799
uh want to answer that question but i

1638
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:19,920
also believe that god

1639
01:00:23,829 --> 01:00:22,640
is far beyond our conceptions of him

1640
01:00:26,150 --> 01:00:23,839
nevertheless

1641
01:00:27,990 --> 01:00:26,160
being humans we're bound to form some

1642
01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:28,000
conception of him

1643
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:30,319
well it would be is it a human form of

1644
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:32,079
course it is because we're humans

1645
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:34,400
as xenophon he said if horses had gods

1646
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,160
they make them look like horses

1647
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:38,319
that's kind of necessary part of our

1648
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:39,359
experience

1649
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,559
and i think frankly we have to we shall

1650
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,559
we say honor that part of it

1651
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:45,920
while realizing that it's not the

1652
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:47,760
absolute truth well think

1653
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:50,240
when you think these images of yours are

1654
01:00:54,390 --> 01:00:51,440
the real thing

1655
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,400
you become um an idolater and that's

1656
01:00:58,470 --> 01:00:56,160
what idolatry is

1657
01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:58,480
you think some image is the thing it's

1658
01:01:02,390 --> 01:00:59,280
represented

1659
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:02,400
really whether that's a statue uh

1660
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:05,839
a doctrine um uh the image on a stained

1661
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:07,440
glass you see in church

1662
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:09,280
so i think it's it's a little different

1663
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:11,280
but i hope that casts some light on what

1664
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:12,400
i think

1665
01:01:15,270 --> 01:01:13,520
i've really been interested in a

1666
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:15,280
near-death experience i have probably

1667
01:01:19,589 --> 01:01:17,440
100 shows on it

1668
01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:19,599
because i think in a lot of ways i don't

1669
01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:20,480
think it's like

1670
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:23,760
perfect but it does kind of cut through

1671
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:26,799
a lot of the cultural filtering and

1672
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:28,000
other just personal

1673
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:30,079
egoic filtering that we apply to the

1674
01:01:32,950 --> 01:01:31,280
spiritual experience

1675
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:32,960
at least that's what it seems it seems

1676
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:34,559
kind of a little more

1677
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:37,440
authentic i've interviewed a number of

1678
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:38,400
christians

1679
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,160
about their near-death experience and

1680
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:42,319
i've gotten varied responses

1681
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:44,559
ian mccormick is a guy who came on and

1682
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:46,240
you know there's christians like ian who

1683
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:46,960
are

1684
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:49,280
attempting to kind of co-op the

1685
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:50,480
near-death experience

1686
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:51,920
even though that's not what the data

1687
01:01:54,069 --> 01:01:53,520
suggests and say hey if you didn't see

1688
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:54,079
jesus

1689
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:56,559
like i did man you didn't have a

1690
01:02:01,990 --> 01:01:59,520
near-death experience that was satan

1691
01:02:04,309 --> 01:02:02,000
messing with you on the other side and

1692
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:04,319
i've also interviewed

1693
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:07,520
other folks who have had a near-death

1694
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:08,240
experience

1695
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:10,640
and and have encountered what they

1696
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:13,119
understand to be christ consciousness

1697
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:16,640
in a very direct way and uh and and they

1698
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:19,680
report that consistently and researchers

1699
01:02:25,510 --> 01:02:22,079
in near-death experience have can tell

1700
01:02:28,190 --> 01:02:25,520
you statistically how many people do

1701
01:02:29,349 --> 01:02:28,200
so i'm wondering when you say what

1702
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:29,359
differentiations

1703
01:02:33,670 --> 01:02:31,920
are you making how do you understand the

1704
01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:33,680
historical jesus

1705
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:36,960
as different than this kind of

1706
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:39,520
co-creation that is christ consciousness

1707
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:42,240
because or or do we even i'm jumping in

1708
01:02:44,789 --> 01:02:42,720
there

1709
01:02:47,270 --> 01:02:44,799
do you believe that when people

1710
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,280
encounter christ consciousness

1711
01:02:50,309 --> 01:02:49,440
through a near-death experience or maybe

1712
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:50,319
through

1713
01:02:53,910 --> 01:02:52,720
another spiritually transformative

1714
01:02:56,950 --> 01:02:53,920
experience

1715
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:56,960
what do you think they're experiencing

1716
01:03:00,390 --> 01:02:59,920
i am not going to be lured into the trap

1717
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:00,400
of

1718
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,640
saying what other people did or didn't

1719
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:04,480
experience

1720
01:03:09,430 --> 01:03:07,839
uh and uh i too many times you hear

1721
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,440
oh you couldn't experience that that was

1722
01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:11,119
your imagination i'm not gonna

1723
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:12,559
fall into that trap i'm not gonna say

1724
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:14,640
where these people did experience christ

1725
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:16,000
consciousness or not because i don't

1726
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:17,440
know because i didn't have their

1727
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:20,160
experience but i will say this

1728
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:21,839
it does seem that these near-death

1729
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:23,920
experiences the entities

1730
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:28,480
and realities encountered uh in them

1731
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:31,839
tend to reflect the belief system

1732
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:34,880
of the individual that is why

1733
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,720
this man says he you know hey man if you

1734
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:38,640
didn't see jesus you you just weren't

1735
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:39,280
there

1736
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:41,280
it's also why you read the tibetan book

1737
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:42,640
of the dead and

1738
01:03:47,190 --> 01:03:45,440
all of these forms have the forms of the

1739
01:03:49,270 --> 01:03:47,200
the tibetan gods

1740
01:03:51,109 --> 01:03:49,280
why because that's their conceptual

1741
01:03:53,750 --> 01:03:51,119
structure you have an experience and you

1742
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:53,760
fit into your own conceptual structure

1743
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:56,880
now that's just true of day-to-day

1744
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:58,559
mundane experience as it is in the

1745
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:00,960
near-death uh realms

1746
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:02,960
uh because yeah i have a computer in

1747
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:04,240
front of me i'm fitting it into my

1748
01:04:09,990 --> 01:04:05,839
conceptual structure

1749
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:10,000
if i had a different conspect um

1750
01:04:13,829 --> 01:04:12,240
context i would you know not know what

1751
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:13,839
it was for i think it was a work of the

1752
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:15,839
evil one or you know something like that

1753
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:18,319
so i think those experiences can be

1754
01:04:20,950 --> 01:04:19,039
genuine

1755
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:20,960
they are going to be clothed in the

1756
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:22,720
shall we say visual language you can

1757
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:23,760
best understand

1758
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:26,799
and are most familiar with usually

1759
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:28,160
yeah i guess where i was going is how

1760
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:29,920
does that relate for you

1761
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:34,079
to the historical jesus most christians

1762
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:37,440
believe that jesus is special

1763
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:40,720
different unique that that time period

1764
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:43,920
is special different unique that the

1765
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:44,480
moment

1766
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:47,599
when he was crucified or when

1767
01:04:52,870 --> 01:04:49,760
particularly when he was resurrected is

1768
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,880
a particular turning point in history

1769
01:04:57,270 --> 01:04:55,200
do you see any evidence of that from

1770
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:57,280
your research

1771
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:59,200
well i don't know what evidence from

1772
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:01,119
research but as i say in

1773
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,240
this book theology of love

1774
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:07,440
i think it is at least possible that the

1775
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:09,760
historical jesus

1776
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:12,079
reached a level of christ consciousness

1777
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:14,160
that is rare

1778
01:05:22,789 --> 01:05:20,789
perhaps more enlightened than we are and

1779
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:22,799
may even be able to help us from other

1780
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:24,400
realms

1781
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:26,079
i'm not sure i would say anything very

1782
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:29,359
different about uh the buddha

1783
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:31,680
so do i think christianity is

1784
01:05:36,950 --> 01:05:33,839
exclusively or uniquely true

1785
01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:36,960
no i don't i think jesus probably had

1786
01:05:39,990 --> 01:05:39,359
this level of very high consciousness

1787
01:05:42,630 --> 01:05:40,000
and

1788
01:05:44,549 --> 01:05:42,640
because one is because what in is in

1789
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:44,559
oneself is deathless as i said to you

1790
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:45,599
before

1791
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:49,200
uh yeah he probably can manifest

1792
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,400
and what connection is it how are the

1793
01:05:54,549 --> 01:05:52,559
person jesus i don't know um

1794
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:54,559
i can't really say uh a lot of the book

1795
01:05:57,750 --> 01:05:55,760
i just uh

1796
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:57,760
uh held up is based on a course in

1797
01:06:02,150 --> 01:05:58,799
miracles

1798
01:06:03,670 --> 01:06:02,160
which is allegedly channeled from jesus

1799
01:06:06,150 --> 01:06:03,680
now do i know that this was channel from

1800
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:06,160
jesus no did the woman who was channeled

1801
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:07,680
through know whether it was from jesus

1802
01:06:10,870 --> 01:06:09,359
no she shouldn't say i don't know i

1803
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,880
don't know who it's from but it does

1804
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:12,559
have its own peculiar authority and i

1805
01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:14,480
have to pay attention to it

1806
01:06:24,630 --> 01:06:19,839
so you know it's the thing is

1807
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:24,640
maybe the essential point in all this is

1808
01:06:28,069 --> 01:06:26,160
we're being called on in so many

1809
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:28,079
instances to say do you believe or not

1810
01:06:30,549 --> 01:06:28,799
believe

1811
01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:30,559
and this is the christian this is the

1812
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:32,880
christian mentality

1813
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:35,440
and it's been transferred to the

1814
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:37,359
scientific mentality of all sorts of

1815
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:38,720
mentalities

1816
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,559
uh but no i don't particularly have to

1817
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:42,480
believe um i'm willing

1818
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,119
to consider a lot of possibilities i

1819
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:47,280
mean one important esoteric maxim i

1820
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,520
learned was neither accept nor reject

1821
01:06:53,710 --> 01:06:51,119
this gives you an enormous amount of

1822
01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:53,720
freedom to say well it may be so

1823
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:56,640
phenomenologically it looks so uh but i

1824
01:06:59,990 --> 01:06:57,599
don't have to

1825
01:07:01,750 --> 01:07:00,000
um you know sign uh you know the

1826
01:07:04,549 --> 01:07:01,760
augsburg confession

1827
01:07:06,309 --> 01:07:04,559
uh in regard to it i think an

1828
01:07:08,309 --> 01:07:06,319
open-minded inquiry

1829
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:08,319
uh the possibility that one that may

1830
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:10,000
well be wrong

1831
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:12,079
the possibility that everyone else may

1832
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:13,280
be wrong to

1833
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:15,119
are all uh points of view that really

1834
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:17,520
need to be you know maintained when one

1835
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:20,880
um delves into these areas and let me

1836
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:21,280
just

1837
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:23,680
kind of uh bring this back from the

1838
01:07:27,910 --> 01:07:25,520
brink before i push it back to the brink

1839
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:27,920
which i'm about to do in a minute but

1840
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:30,319
this book that we're talking about is in

1841
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:31,440
many respects

1842
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:34,559
extremely practical for a bunch of

1843
01:07:38,470 --> 01:07:35,280
people

1844
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:38,480
even myself i found comfort in your kind

1845
01:07:41,670 --> 01:07:38,720
of

1846
01:07:42,230 --> 01:07:41,680
even-handed approach toward practical

1847
01:07:44,710 --> 01:07:42,240
approach

1848
01:07:45,750 --> 01:07:44,720
towards hey don't believe everything but

1849
01:07:49,190 --> 01:07:45,760
don't disbelieve

1850
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:49,200
everything either and just

1851
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:51,599
pointing people towards areas that they

1852
01:07:54,950 --> 01:07:53,440
might want to investigate further

1853
01:07:56,950 --> 01:07:54,960
and in that respect i think the book

1854
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:56,960
does a great job and it is very

1855
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:58,000
conversational

1856
01:08:01,750 --> 01:07:59,839
it's easy to get through and it's easy

1857
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:01,760
to bounce through some chapters and say

1858
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:04,160
hey what about the tarot what is that

1859
01:08:06,789 --> 01:08:05,920
all about there's some good historical

1860
01:08:08,870 --> 01:08:06,799
information

1861
01:08:09,990 --> 01:08:08,880
a little bit of debunking on some

1862
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:10,000
misunderstanding

1863
01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:12,640
and then some practical information same

1864
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:14,799
for astrology same for after death

1865
01:08:19,189 --> 01:08:15,520
spirits

1866
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:19,199
all that stuff so there's for many of us

1867
01:08:22,829 --> 01:08:21,839
even folks who feel like they've been on

1868
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:22,839
this path of

1869
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:25,920
spiritual investigation i think they

1870
01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:27,040
will find

1871
01:08:30,630 --> 01:08:29,359
little nuggets in this book that they're

1872
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:30,640
going to find

1873
01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:33,359
very helpful is that been has that been

1874
01:08:36,630 --> 01:08:34,799
your experience what kind of feedback

1875
01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:36,640
have you gotten

1876
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:38,560
yeah i've gotten feedback like that uh

1877
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:40,560
in fact i sent a copy of

1878
01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:43,440
uh the book to um one of my oldest and

1879
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:45,279
closest friends he's

1880
01:08:49,189 --> 01:08:47,199
very much not a believer in this sort of

1881
01:08:52,789 --> 01:08:49,199
thing and he he said he enjoyed it

1882
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:52,799
and read out some passages to his sister

1883
01:08:56,070 --> 01:08:54,239
and you know got something out of it

1884
01:08:56,470 --> 01:08:56,080
himself so i am getting feedback like

1885
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,480
that

1886
01:09:00,309 --> 01:08:58,000
and which is good because it's exactly

1887
01:09:02,309 --> 01:09:00,319
what i intended and um

1888
01:09:04,070 --> 01:09:02,319
i just want to say something i mean i

1889
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:04,080
when i'm speaking in this book

1890
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:06,560
i'm speaking from my own personal

1891
01:09:09,829 --> 01:09:07,920
authority

1892
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:09,839
in the sense that this is what i have to

1893
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:12,080
say this is not what the church says

1894
01:09:15,669 --> 01:09:13,040
this is not what

1895
01:09:16,630 --> 01:09:15,679
uh the the lodges of fellaini say this

1896
01:09:19,829 --> 01:09:16,640
is not what

1897
01:09:21,829 --> 01:09:19,839
um the us you know department of

1898
01:09:23,269 --> 01:09:21,839
whatever at whatever university says

1899
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:23,279
this is what i have to say what does

1900
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:25,839
that put on you well you're equally free

1901
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:27,440
to accept or reject it

1902
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,400
or perhaps both or neither on your own

1903
01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:32,640
authority

1904
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:35,679
and um there is a strange verse

1905
01:09:39,030 --> 01:09:38,319
in the new testament where it said the

1906
01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:39,040
crowd

1907
01:09:43,189 --> 01:09:42,080
wondered jesus because he spoke as one

1908
01:09:46,789 --> 01:09:43,199
having authority

1909
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,799
and not as the scribes now what's what's

1910
01:09:50,789 --> 01:09:48,960
very interesting about that

1911
01:09:52,709 --> 01:09:50,799
is if you pay attention to it that would

1912
01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:52,719
have to mean that the people in

1913
01:10:00,229 --> 01:09:59,110
had some inner capacity to recognize

1914
01:10:01,910 --> 01:10:00,239
real authority

1915
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:01,920
versus some guy who's blabbering on a

1916
01:10:06,149 --> 01:10:04,000
chapter and uh verse that means

1917
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:06,159
you have your own authority and that has

1918
01:10:09,990 --> 01:10:08,480
to be your ultimate touchstone

1919
01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:10,000
agree with what i say don't agree with

1920
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:11,840
me saying like me don't like me it

1921
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:12,800
doesn't matter

1922
01:10:16,149 --> 01:10:14,000
you know i think you really have to

1923
01:10:19,669 --> 01:10:16,159
bring that back to this and

1924
01:10:21,430 --> 01:10:19,679
also admitting the possibility that um

1925
01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:21,440
uh i might not be right or i might

1926
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:23,040
change my mind to more

1927
01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:26,640
you know that's new information may need

1928
01:10:30,630 --> 01:10:28,880
lead to new conclusions you know so and

1929
01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:30,640
i think that's what true skepticism is

1930
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:31,440
about

1931
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:34,480
it's a desire to really know uh to be

1932
01:10:40,229 --> 01:10:36,880
honest about what you don't know

1933
01:10:40,550 --> 01:10:40,239
and you know always being willing to say

1934
01:10:43,350 --> 01:10:40,560
well

1935
01:10:44,229 --> 01:10:43,360
i can always know more i'm never going

1936
01:10:46,390 --> 01:10:44,239
to know everything

1937
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:46,400
because i don't think that's possible uh

1938
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:48,320
in a human existence

1939
01:10:52,550 --> 01:10:50,000
but there's always another direction to

1940
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:52,560
going further to go

1941
01:10:57,110 --> 01:10:54,719
that's one of the main points of my book

1942
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:57,120
excellent so richard uh one more point

1943
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:59,040
if i can and then i'll i'll let you go

1944
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,480
you've been very generous with your time

1945
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:01,600
here

1946
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:04,159
but i want to return to my little story

1947
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:04,960
about

1948
01:11:10,229 --> 01:11:08,000
my buddy tom zinzer again the

1949
01:11:11,270 --> 01:11:10,239
psychologist clinical psychologist from

1950
01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:11,280
grand rapids

1951
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:13,120
and he starts encountering these people

1952
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:14,960
who have experienced

1953
01:11:18,790 --> 01:11:17,600
satanic ritual abuse and as you know

1954
01:11:21,510 --> 01:11:18,800
that's a very

1955
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:21,520
controversial topic for a lot of folks

1956
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:22,000
but

1957
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:24,800
it really shouldn't be any little bit of

1958
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:26,400
investigation of that

1959
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:29,040
that's honest and fair you will find

1960
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:30,880
that for whatever reason there's people

1961
01:11:34,709 --> 01:11:32,400
who are

1962
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,719
engaging that activity and it's

1963
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:36,640
extremely harmful to the victims and

1964
01:11:39,189 --> 01:11:38,000
i've interviewed at least one of the

1965
01:11:41,669 --> 01:11:39,199
victims

1966
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:41,679
here uh annika lucas who was involved

1967
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:43,600
with the dutrow case

1968
01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:46,880
in belgium which kind of made national

1969
01:11:49,510 --> 01:11:48,719
news you know back in the 90s when it

1970
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,520
happened so

1971
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:51,440
these things are very real and they're

1972
01:11:55,189 --> 01:11:52,880
always countered with kind of a

1973
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:55,199
disinformation thing like satanic panic

1974
01:12:01,669 --> 01:11:58,800
which i guess is real in a way too but

1975
01:12:02,229 --> 01:12:01,679
there is a fundamental truth to it so it

1976
01:12:04,750 --> 01:12:02,239
wasn't

1977
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:04,760
just panic it might have been

1978
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:06,960
exaggerated by

1979
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:08,719
fundamentalist christians who took it

1980
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:10,000
too far

1981
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:12,320
but there was a real truth to it so

1982
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:14,159
that's what tom zinzer found so he's

1983
01:12:16,790 --> 01:12:15,440
working with patients

1984
01:12:19,270 --> 01:12:16,800
and he's finding out that they really

1985
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:19,280
have been traumatized sexually abused in

1986
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:22,320
a lot of cases at very young ages

1987
01:12:25,910 --> 01:12:24,960
but what he finds that's particularly

1988
01:12:29,030 --> 01:12:25,920
important and

1989
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:29,040
interesting for our discussion is the

1990
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:31,199
incidence of disassociative identity

1991
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:32,480
disorder

1992
01:12:39,510 --> 01:12:35,520
and that that may be actually

1993
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:39,520
a mechanism a tool to

1994
01:12:46,790 --> 01:12:42,640
engage with the extended realms

1995
01:12:50,709 --> 01:12:46,800
and that these practices of

1996
01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:50,719
doing things to people in order to

1997
01:12:55,110 --> 01:12:52,880
create this dissociative identity

1998
01:12:58,390 --> 01:12:55,120
disorder might actually be a tool

1999
01:13:01,350 --> 01:12:58,400
well lo and behold go look at mk ultra

2000
01:13:03,669 --> 01:13:01,360
and you'll find exactly that that's what

2001
01:13:05,750 --> 01:13:03,679
they were engaged in they were

2002
01:13:07,830 --> 01:13:05,760
intentionally trying to do that go

2003
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:07,840
interview whitley strieber like i did

2004
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:09,840
you'll find that that's what they were

2005
01:13:14,310 --> 01:13:10,960
engaging in

2006
01:13:17,510 --> 01:13:14,320
there does seem to be a mechanism

2007
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:17,520
almost a science to

2008
01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:20,320
reaching these extended realms through

2009
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:23,120
disassociative identity disorder

2010
01:13:28,950 --> 01:13:26,239
is that anything you've stumbled across

2011
01:13:30,709 --> 01:13:28,960
and do you have any thoughts on that

2012
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:30,719
no it's an idea i've never heard

2013
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:33,520
although it's an interesting one

2014
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:35,040
it makes a certain amount of sense on

2015
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:37,360
the face of it having just heard it

2016
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:39,280
but i want to go back because you

2017
01:13:42,550 --> 01:13:41,360
screened through an enormous number of

2018
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:42,560
satanic figures

2019
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:45,600
a few moments ago and

2020
01:13:48,870 --> 01:13:48,560
these people are all over the place i

2021
01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:48,880
got

2022
01:13:55,030 --> 01:13:52,480
anton zandor levay uh who's

2023
01:13:56,229 --> 01:13:55,040
well i i can't point to him but you see

2024
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:56,239
him here somewhere

2025
01:14:00,149 --> 01:13:59,120
um let's show the picture of let's show

2026
01:14:02,550 --> 01:14:00,159
the picture of him

2027
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:02,560
and uh michael aquino that's that's my

2028
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:04,159
go-to guy

2029
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:07,199
who they were big buddies

2030
01:14:10,630 --> 01:14:08,640
if you look at the evidence of him i

2031
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:10,640
mean he's a pedophile

2032
01:14:14,470 --> 01:14:12,719
and the evidence of him and his wife

2033
01:14:16,149 --> 01:14:14,480
abusing kids and i actually

2034
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:16,159
pulled that up on the screen in case we

2035
01:14:20,790 --> 01:14:18,719
wanted to talk about it

2036
01:14:22,229 --> 01:14:20,800
search warrant i don't i don't know i

2037
01:14:23,910 --> 01:14:22,239
don't know about his particular case i

2038
01:14:26,149 --> 01:14:23,920
mean i uh

2039
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:26,159
i mean he was a colonel in us army

2040
01:14:32,070 --> 01:14:29,280
intelligence which you know oh my god

2041
01:14:33,030 --> 01:14:32,080
but on the other hand um it was a saying

2042
01:14:35,189 --> 01:14:33,040
i guess that's he was

2043
01:14:36,630 --> 01:14:35,199
the person you may want that knows how

2044
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:36,640
to do this stuff or

2045
01:14:41,830 --> 01:14:39,840
um uh well he was publicly he was

2046
01:14:42,229 --> 01:14:41,840
publicly a satanist though i mean right

2047
01:14:44,870 --> 01:14:42,239
so

2048
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:44,880
he was a member he stayed in the the

2049
01:14:48,790 --> 01:14:46,480
military and said hey i'm

2050
01:14:51,030 --> 01:14:48,800
freedom of religion i'm a satanist you

2051
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:51,040
know this is what i do this is how i

2052
01:14:56,310 --> 01:14:52,159
practice

2053
01:14:58,630 --> 01:14:56,320
and uh so yeah well i do know other uh

2054
01:15:00,630 --> 01:14:58,640
people who call themselves satanists who

2055
01:15:02,550 --> 01:15:00,640
see him on the faces to be

2056
01:15:04,149 --> 01:15:02,560
actually really quite decent and ethical

2057
01:15:06,630 --> 01:15:04,159
people so

2058
01:15:08,390 --> 01:15:06,640
um you know satanism is this bad there

2059
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:08,400
are really people doing this

2060
01:15:12,070 --> 01:15:10,080
you know how you know how you know that

2061
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:12,080
there is the satanic ritual abuse

2062
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:15,440
going on definitely because you have to

2063
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:17,120
apply the principle

2064
01:15:20,950 --> 01:15:19,440
um if you can think of it somebody's

2065
01:15:23,350 --> 01:15:20,960
tried it

2066
01:15:24,630 --> 01:15:23,360
that is basically probably the epitaph

2067
01:15:26,470 --> 01:15:24,640
of the human race

2068
01:15:27,669 --> 01:15:26,480
yeah if you thought of it somebody's

2069
01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:27,679
tried this

2070
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:29,520
uh the epitaphic real epitaph of the

2071
01:15:33,350 --> 01:15:31,360
human race was probably it seemed like a

2072
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:33,360
good idea at the time but um

2073
01:15:37,750 --> 01:15:36,159
we can uh bypass that so yeah i think

2074
01:15:40,310 --> 01:15:37,760
this thing exists

2075
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:40,320
but i would be very cautious about

2076
01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:40,800
saying

2077
01:15:43,910 --> 01:15:42,719
everyone who kind of seems to fit the

2078
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:43,920
label of

2079
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:45,600
you know the temple upset or the

2080
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:48,000
left-hand path as they sometimes call it

2081
01:15:52,229 --> 01:15:49,920
is doing these kinds of things i do

2082
01:15:57,510 --> 01:15:52,239
believe people are doing these things uh

2083
01:16:01,590 --> 01:15:57,520
in the name of satan on the other hand

2084
01:16:04,950 --> 01:16:01,600
uh in terms of just sheer statistics

2085
01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:04,960
uh how many uh people are doing this in

2086
01:16:08,709 --> 01:16:06,880
the name of jesus christ in catholic

2087
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:08,719
churches

2088
01:16:15,990 --> 01:16:12,719
i mean numerically which group is larger

2089
01:16:20,630 --> 01:16:16,000
go down the list of churches uh

2090
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:20,640
you know lds churches uh

2091
01:16:23,750 --> 01:16:23,040
you mentioned catholic churches you can

2092
01:16:26,070 --> 01:16:23,760
go to

2093
01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:26,080
all the other strange groups that now

2094
01:16:30,070 --> 01:16:26,800
have come out

2095
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:30,080
the same thing so yeah um and cults

2096
01:16:33,990 --> 01:16:33,520
cults as well including all the the ones

2097
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:34,000
including

2098
01:16:37,510 --> 01:16:36,239
indian cults and all the rest of them so

2099
01:16:39,669 --> 01:16:37,520
now i get your point

2100
01:16:41,270 --> 01:16:39,679
i i get your point on that it's it's

2101
01:16:42,310 --> 01:16:41,280
really more of a

2102
01:16:44,470 --> 01:16:42,320
and that's why i wish you would have

2103
01:16:47,110 --> 01:16:44,480
gone more in the book because the way i

2104
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:47,120
see it is there's certain energies

2105
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:49,440
that people are tapping into and that's

2106
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:50,400
what my

2107
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:53,120
buddy tom zinzer said he said look there

2108
01:16:56,149 --> 01:16:54,159
is darkness

2109
01:16:57,590 --> 01:16:56,159
and darkness is like a gravitational

2110
01:17:00,709 --> 01:16:57,600
force it's not

2111
01:17:02,070 --> 01:17:00,719
bad per se it's just the relief through

2112
01:17:04,709 --> 01:17:02,080
which we see

2113
01:17:06,390 --> 01:17:04,719
lightness through we see light and that

2114
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:06,400
light is really the game light is what

2115
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:07,679
it's about and you would agree with this

2116
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:09,040
because that's what your book is about

2117
01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:11,760
it's about achieving oneness with the

2118
01:17:14,550 --> 01:17:12,239
good

2119
01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:14,560
with god with the moral imperative to do

2120
01:17:17,189 --> 01:17:16,400
right which we all know what's the right

2121
01:17:19,270 --> 01:17:17,199
thing to do

2122
01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:19,280
but darkness is always there and

2123
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:20,320
available to us

2124
01:17:26,709 --> 01:17:23,760
and it doesn't mean that it's evil our

2125
01:17:27,590 --> 01:17:26,719
acts of being drawn to the darkness in

2126
01:17:30,950 --> 01:17:27,600
order to

2127
01:17:33,510 --> 01:17:30,960
satisfy our problems

2128
01:17:35,110 --> 01:17:33,520
is what evil is this is what dr zinzer

2129
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:35,120
told me and it makes a lot of sense

2130
01:17:39,189 --> 01:17:37,600
it would also make sense in terms of hey

2131
01:17:42,790 --> 01:17:39,199
the satanic people

2132
01:17:45,430 --> 01:17:42,800
the serial killers who are claiming

2133
01:17:46,870 --> 01:17:45,440
uh connection to spirit entities same

2134
01:17:49,990 --> 01:17:46,880
thing they're just trying to

2135
01:17:53,030 --> 01:17:50,000
tap into something that relieves them

2136
01:17:55,110 --> 01:17:53,040
of the feelings that they have because

2137
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:55,120
they feel the dark force and they don't

2138
01:17:58,229 --> 01:17:56,560
know how to get to the light force

2139
01:18:01,590 --> 01:17:58,239
there was a good sermon but do you have

2140
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,830
well one of the chapters of my book is

2141
01:18:08,470 --> 01:18:06,080
called the life force

2142
01:18:09,750 --> 01:18:08,480
and which is sometimes called chi or

2143
01:18:12,149 --> 01:18:09,760
prana

2144
01:18:13,669 --> 01:18:12,159
and what is it well if one thing is the

2145
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:13,679
difference between a living human being

2146
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:15,280
and a corpse

2147
01:18:19,510 --> 01:18:17,040
which are as you know otherwise

2148
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:19,520
anatomically identical at least

2149
01:18:26,950 --> 01:18:23,760
at the outset um and this life force

2150
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:26,960
is morally neutral

2151
01:18:31,030 --> 01:18:29,600
i mean that is one of the appeal of the

2152
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,040
star wars series

2153
01:18:37,350 --> 01:18:34,080
because the star wars actually series

2154
01:18:40,149 --> 01:18:37,360
talks about the force and

2155
01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:40,159
it the force is morally neutral there's

2156
01:18:42,790 --> 01:18:41,600
the light side of the force and this is

2157
01:18:45,590 --> 01:18:42,800
the dyson

2158
01:18:47,510 --> 01:18:45,600
you can use electricity or nuclear power

2159
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:47,520
for the most benign and helpful means

2160
01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:48,640
you can use them for the most

2161
01:18:53,910 --> 01:18:52,320
um um perfidious needs so

2162
01:18:55,590 --> 01:18:53,920
you know and then you know why you

2163
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:55,600
choose one or the other well then that

2164
01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:57,840
gets into a very very complicated

2165
01:19:03,350 --> 01:19:01,679
uh moral questions but um yeah

2166
01:19:05,030 --> 01:19:03,360
that's what i have to say about it well

2167
01:19:08,149 --> 01:19:05,040
excellent i i think

2168
01:19:10,149 --> 01:19:08,159
the torture session

2169
01:19:11,750 --> 01:19:10,159
you no i it has been torture it's been

2170
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:11,760
an awesome dialogue and i appreciate

2171
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:12,960
your openness i mean

2172
01:19:16,470 --> 01:19:14,960
you didn't back off of any questions or

2173
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:16,480
anything like that which i

2174
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:18,239
and it's fun to engage in these kind of

2175
01:19:21,510 --> 01:19:20,000
dialogues that take us beyond what we

2176
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:21,520
normally talk about so

2177
01:19:24,950 --> 01:19:22,880
this book that people are going to want

2178
01:19:28,390 --> 01:19:24,960
to check out the truth about

2179
01:19:29,430 --> 01:19:28,400
magic is out now on kindle richard's

2180
01:19:33,669 --> 01:19:29,440
many other books

2181
01:19:35,270 --> 01:19:33,679
are available as well and you'll find

2182
01:19:37,350 --> 01:19:35,280
just some great stuff in there from

2183
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:37,360
somebody who truly is a

2184
01:19:42,709 --> 01:19:40,560
spiritual seeker that we want to keep

2185
01:19:44,229 --> 01:19:42,719
in touch with so richard thanks so much

2186
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:44,239
for joining me

2187
01:19:49,830 --> 01:19:47,280
well thank you very much uh and just to

2188
01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:49,840
reinforce one point that might not

2189
01:19:54,149 --> 01:19:51,920
be already clear i want to say it was a

2190
01:19:56,950 --> 01:19:54,159
pleasure from beginning to end

2191
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:56,960
oh fantastic thank you richard i enjoyed

2192
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:58,560
it very much

2193
01:20:02,790 --> 01:20:00,400
thank you so much thanks for your

2194
01:20:04,229 --> 01:20:02,800
interest in my work

2195
01:20:06,149 --> 01:20:04,239
thanks again to richard smoley for

2196
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:06,159
joining me today on skeptico

2197
01:20:10,870 --> 01:20:08,639
the one question i'd have to tee up from

2198
01:20:14,790 --> 01:20:10,880
this interview

2199
01:20:16,229 --> 01:20:14,800
isn't this why evil matters

2200
01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:16,239
how are we ever going to get to that

2201
01:20:22,149 --> 01:20:18,400
next level of understanding

2202
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:22,159
of this stuff if we can't get past

2203
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,679
level one okay that's a total inside

2204
01:20:29,430 --> 01:20:27,600
baseball kind of question but

2205
01:20:31,510 --> 01:20:29,440
if you're still with me you're probably

2206
01:20:33,750 --> 01:20:31,520
playing inside baseball with me

2207
01:20:34,870 --> 01:20:33,760
so jump in there with an answer plenty

2208
01:20:37,669 --> 01:20:34,880
of places to do it

2209
01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:37,679
track me down however you see fit until